[Tim]

We are just going to have to agree to see it from different sides, then.

You flew in PvP circles, i flew in carebear circles. I had a fair amount of experience with MACk, and though you have no reason to believe me, i'll state again that the majority of that squad left due to what would be termed 'non-consensual pvp'.

I'm shocked and amazed that our diametrically opposed reasons for playing jumpgate have lead us to different conclusions about it's success and failure.

Either way, making money means making a popular game. And we both know that the Sims has already had massive effects on the gaming market. What is WOW, if not Sims with weapons and AI?

Jumpgate will try to appeal to as many folks as they can, and I think pvp vs pve servers is a great way to do it.

[Miskugun]

ive flown in both circles, with many different squads on many different accts. concerning MACK, never once did i shoot any of their tows/freighters on my PvP accts.

they simply never let it get even remotely close to that scenario. they recognized threats to the hauling community and made sure they were left alone by simply playing on the pirates/asshats needs.

MACK was a very respectable squad for the simple fact they knew how to play the game, and play it on their own terms. i seriously doubt any of them quit due to "NON consensual PvP", im positive your thinking of FRG.

i think there should be safe zones for starting players to protect from the true asshats, but for starting players only, once you get a certain level you should no longer be given that level of immunity. that alone creates asshats in any circle of the game.

P.S.
your gay

[Ikeprof]

Actually I retract much of my original inebriated post on this topic.

Most of the time we never prevented the original "downing" that a pilot experienced and there was little incentive in terms of tools and mechanics to support impromptu escort quests/requests and the like.

I think that if ND is successful with their goal, the old school playerbase will lose the environment that made the things I enjoyed so much possible and will experience a "Planetside" effect to the game.

I draw this specific parallel as it took me a long time in Plantisde to realize what was wrong.

Here you have the perfect scene..a "semi skilled" FPS on a grand scale. Epic sweeping battles, multi manned vehicles, TURRETS!!!!...

Yet it fell short. It took me a while to realize why. I had NO clue who I was fighting...they might as well have been semi inept NPC's. What made most of our experience fun in Jumpgate Classic was we played upon the dialogue, interaction and knowledge of who we were dealing with on both a 1 to 1 and squad to squad level. Squads had personality and people had tactics. To say someone TTelephoned...that had a meaning because of his tactics.

In the end, I don't believe that if ND does meet their goal that anything remotely resembling what we had in that form of "environment" can exist..there will be simply too many names to remember and deal with.

I still abhor the idea of safe zones, but am not sure that my foundation or frame of reference for their absence works.

[Algore]

Originally Posted by Tritian

If the original title had better graphics, a better interface, and better dev support from the beggining, it might of held on to it's playerbase. Enough so that the small amount of people who played the game and couldn't handle dieing to other players would of left without being missed.

Small amount of people. I'm not sure if you really honestly believe that but you are burying your head in the sand if you do. I used to think the same, but after years of experience even I admit that OV did a huge amount of harm to the game in the early days due to our all or nothing approach.
You talk about them not being missed, but you clearly miss them as there are less victims for you now.
Take a step back and think about the facts. 100's and 100's used to play the game, not all of them were happy to get shot. In fact the majority were not. Just because we think they were pansies does not mean we should ignore their feelings/approach.
I can make lots of statements also, statements that I know not to be true no matter how much I wish they were. I try not to insult myself by doing so though.

Regards
Al

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Miskugun

ive flown in both circles, with many different squads on many different accts. concerning MACK, never once did i shoot any of their tows/freighters on my PvP accts.

they simply never let it get even remotely close to that scenario. they recognized threats to the hauling community and made sure they were left alone by simply playing on the pirates/asshats needs.

MACK was a very respectable squad for the simple fact they knew how to play the game, and play it on their own terms. i seriously doubt any of them quit due to "NON consensual PvP", im positive your thinking of FRG.

i think there should be safe zones for starting players to protect from the true asshats, but for starting players only, once you get a certain level you should no longer be given that level of immunity. that alone creates asshats in any circle of the game.

P.S.
your gay

It must have looked different on the outside than it did on the inside. MACk drew a fair number of folks just because of that reputation.. folks who wanted to prove themselves by taking on the 'big boys'.

Again.. it's up to you what you want to believe.. while everybody else was posting goodbye notices on jossh about various things, folks were posting at mack-station.com about the non-consent pvp stuff. That's how it was, take it for what it's worth.

ps. Stop hitting on me. And i'm sending back the roses.

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Algore

Small amount of people. I'm not sure if you really honestly believe that but you are burying your head in the sand if you do. I used to think the same, but after years of experience even I admit that OV did a huge amount of harm to the game in the early days due to our all or nothing approach.

I think you're selling yourself short.

I know nothing about OV history, but i'm positive OV has done more good then bad. The truth is, it's tough for any large well-coordinated squad to not have a much more positive effect on their surroundings then negative.

You not only keep all of your squad mates in the game, but you're keeping all the people who haul for you, hunt you, and probably a bigger portion of the ones getting attacked by you then you might think, entertained aswell.

Without squads such as yours giving people something to RP, something to fight for, something to fight against... the game would suck. So I put forth that any organized and active squad does far more good for the game then it could possibly do bad.

Take the extreme example of 'Therapists' squad on the US server. A well hated squad of highly skilled pilots who had absolutely no problems with constantly killing civilians, simply for being the wrong faction.

However, a unifying force in PvP. Ask the question: What are we doing tonight?

"Hunting Therapists..."

"Escorting _squadmate_ incase of Therapists"

etc..

This isn't a bad squad or good squad thing. It's an 'active' squad thing. And if people leave the game because they cant handle that aspect, then perhaps this isn't the right game for them. That isn't a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Algore

You talk about them not being missed, but you clearly miss them as there are less victims for you now.

They are other players, and this is a multiplayer game. The victim thing is really kinda played out. It's not like they lose an arm every time their escape pod launches. The penalties for death really arent all that severe, especially when you factor in exactly how often it really happens to someone.

So no, I won't be shedding any tears over the 50 people max I might of personally civripped in my Jumpgate career.

And if 5 of those 50 quit the game because I killed them, well thats fine. Because i'm positive my existance and the existance of other people such as me within Jumpgate has kept a lot more people interested and paying that monthly fee.

Originally Posted by Algore

Take a step back and think about the facts. 100's and 100's used to play the game, not all of them were happy to get shot. In fact the majority were not. Just because we think they were pansies does not mean we should ignore their feelings/approach.

OK, you say "Lets look at the facts" and then immediately proceed to say that the majority of people who left jumpgate, left because they were griefed out by PvP'ers. I think you need to take a step back and look at the facts yourself, instead of making them up to support your position.

Originally Posted by Algore

I can make lots of statements also, statements that I know not to be true no matter how much I wish they were. I try not to insult myself by doing so though.

Regards
Al

You seem to be under the impression that I cry myself to sleep every night over the thousands of Solrain i've massacred in this video game.

I assure you, I believe 100% in the rhetoric I spew. =)

[Tim]

You missed: "Not logging in because of Therapists"

Edit: and we all know you don't cry yourself to sleep at night. I think that's part of what AlGore might be driving at...

[Jump]

Tim, as a long time Senior Op in -=MACK=- I have a different view. There are two -=MACK=- squads. The one that had tons of fun in early release up until EP2, and then there is the one where tons of people would join for the protection alone. Most of these never came to the forums and seldom used chat or involved themselves in squad events.

These were the ones that cried when things went wrong. The ones that caused Hurricane or me or whomever to spend hours whispering various folks because they did something stupid. The ones that cried when they got shot down. Yes, they eventually left the game. Many -=MACK=- left for PVP, such as Holder, Jonboy, Circusboy, etc.

-=MACK=- changed for the worse in it's latter years. It attracted too many that were unwilling to pay the price of freedom. It also attracted a few serious economic griefers, which is where my trouble started with the squad and why I ultimately quit the squad and the game.

-=MACK=- at it's foundation was not a carebear squad. But in the end, it was, which is why it isn't.

Being safe is something that sounds nice when you're riding in your pod thinking of the loss of your cargo. But in the end, being safe is not fun.

[Tritian]

So are you saying, Tim, I should feel remorse for pirating enemy faction ships?

I think you should ask yourself a few questions.

Question 1: Howcome every ship has guns, shields, missiles, and afterburner?
Question 2: Howcome there are three seperate factions, and not just one?
Question 3: Howcome there are these beacons that seem to be designed to piss the other factions off?

The answers to all 3 questions are *drumroll*: You're playing a fricken war game!

You might die! Another player, possibly from one of those 'other' factions, might kill you!

IMO, If ND wants to avoid people leaving the game for this reason, they should do things to make it more obvious that you might die, and that this is basically an mmo war simulator in space.

For starters, i'd make faction-based economies. That was one of the things that wa s really odd about Jumpgate Classic... we clearly were supposed to kill each other, but we also relied on each other for equipment and our economies were linked. IMO, each of the factions should of been capable of trade between each other, but self sufficient on their own.

I think that's what they were trying to do when there was talk of making faction equivalents for everything... so for example, each faction would have it's own useful size 2 shield. But they kinda forgot somewhere along the way, or they never took it far enough. =P

[Jump]

I think you should use quotes so we know who you're talking to Trit. Or at least address people by name.

[Algore]