[Wild_Bill]

I realize I'm a non-typical JGer, much less gamer, but I didn't "level up" my vessels for a LONG time. I was level 10 or 11 before I even bothered getting into a Raven, quickly left that when I was eligible for the Hawk (FT) and have flown the Raven very little since. I was having fun doing what I was doing. Same for the LM. I've never flown it, other than a quick try-out in the Sim. I liked the Turkey (Transport) and chose to fly it instead for most of my mining duties until I got the Vulture (HM). I've been over level 26 since March 10th 2002 but I seldom fly the 'Nix. I fly the Dragon a lot though because I like it. Same for the post bump Craptor (although I loved the post-bum/pre-nerf Craptor much better). Leveling up just means "more choices" to me. I don't see that the game would have been hurt had I had access to the various ships before Level 9/12/26/30/42/50 or whatever.

Saying you can have whatever you can pay for has it's attractions, but the certificate system from E&B as explained by Tritian makes excellent sense as well. Since Scorch seems to support a multi-path route I think that could work out most excellently.

I would propose a slight twist for a three-fold path. Path I would be exp leveling (same as we currently have in Jumpgate Classic). Different ships and equipment would become available at various levels (as it is now). On Path II you could also "earn" certificates by your activities and get around the level requirements. Of course, you would still have to afford the equipment to acquire it. The third path would be just that. If you could afford a lvl 26 ship at say, level 12, and get someone to "vouch" for you (aka brokering the ship/equipment) then you could have it. Of course, as the current situation is on equipment, if you crashed you'd have to find another broker/voucher to replace it if you didn't have the certificates/level.

The "miner" path would require set amounts of ore mined to get pre-level access to various ships/equipment related to mining.(rotacol, deep radar, fuel scoops, larger/more powerful mining lasers, LM, HM, etc).

The "hauler" path would require set amounts of product produced/hauled to get pre-level access to ships/equipment related to hauling/producing. (light transports/fast transports/transports/tows/tugs, CM, EB, etc)

The "combat" path would require a set number of "kills" of either flux or hostile pilots to get pre-level access for ships/equipment related to combat (LF/MF/F/HF more powerful or longer range or faster firing ammo/lasers, missiles, shields, SB, EB, etc).

Possibly MT or Pirate tags could offer Path IV for certain "top-level" equipment or modexs related to either pirating or military service. Now if certificates were awarded for activity as a MT or Pirate, then said accreditation would allow you to keep or purchase the same "top-level" equipment later on if the original equipment was lost or destroyed.

So you could do the "level grind"; earn certificates or find you a sponsor to help you down your chosen career path. I think a combination of level, certificates and a sponsor might allow you to purchase extra-special ships/equipment (Can we say Mining Tugs? of Anti-Flux Rangers?).

[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

The first time you play, you wouldn't realise that you could stop at 18 and you'd just play on. In fact, I doubt you'd have learned enough to be competitive by 18, and so would be forced to keep practicing on AI rather than people for a while, anyway (speculation). Content should be fun enough that you'd want to keep playing, instead of just wanting to finish off the grind. We've all been saying higher level = higher choice, so you would still have plenty to play for if you just want people to experience leveling and progression.

I don't disagree with this at all. My point is that everyone who's ever played Jumpgate has their own favorite ship, some like Miners, some like freighters, the fluxers and the PvP crowd all have their personal favorite class of fighter. Some prefer the LF, some the MF, some want the firepower you get from fighters and HF's. Our personal preferrences dictate just how far up the levelling ladder we want to go.

This is true of every vocation imaginable in Jumpgate, simply because there is absolutely no tangible, in-game reason for anyone to level past 40. None. At all. Period.

Scorch suggested we remedy this by making new ships available at the highest level. Apparently it gave everyone a massive brain hemorrage when he used the term "better" light fighter. Even though each and every one of us have our own opinions on which ship is "better" than the rest.

I find myself wondering whether the reaction would have been different, had Scorch used the term "Advanced Fighter" instead of a "better" light fighter...

Originally Posted by Jonboy

What have high-end flux from Jumpgate Classic got anything to do with Jumpgate Evolution???

What do you want from end-game content?

Why do you have to be a high-level character to experience end-game content? What makes end-game content different than any other content? Surely, content would be better if you _wanted_ to use it at all levels. Early-level content only has to be early-level in gear-based games because developers have to 'control player environment.' It's what I call 'separating players from gear' - to keep them on the grind. IMO, end-game content in gear-based games is only the content you do to get gear at the highest character-level .

Having end-game content only accessible to high level characters just reinforces the gear-based system. If you're good enough you're old enough, I say. Do you stop Kobe Bryant from playing pro basketball until he's finished college?

I never said that content in Jumpgate Evolution should be dependent on gear. It's not that hard to say "you can't take this mission or begin this quest until you are a certain rank" without relegating the gameplay to being gear dependent. It's been the party line around here to preach that Jumpgate Evolution should be skill-based rather than gear- or level-based. I am in no way contradicting that statement at all.

Would it not be logical to assume that, just like in other MMOs, a players "ability" will improve as he or she gains experience? The way I see it, by puting level restrictions on content in Jumpgate Evolution, your not limiting the players options, your helping to expand them. The fluxer that loves to fly light fighters still needs to reach level 30 to do the "Flee from the Fudge Factory of Doom" quest, just like the PvPer that really enjoys flying the Quantar Heavy PIE Slinger needs to be level 32 to fly it.

Originally Posted by Jonboy

My ideas of progression aren't limited to raiding thru developer-written content. MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online, it doesn't say anything about game progression, let alone level structure.

I want personal progression as well as game progression. I don't want some grind to experience and then finish and move on. You're right that I don't want Quake in Space. I do want content from the developers. I do want progression. I don't want to be beaten in PvP by someone who is terrible at the game, but happens to be in a higher level ship than me because they've played two weeks longer. So 'content' and 'progression' should not just mean 'getting better gear.'

I'm not gonna rehash this for the sake of hearing myself talk, so to speak. I just firmly believe that it makes sense in the case of Jumpgate Evolution, a game that ND wants to promote "to the masses", that the overall game structure should be something that is at least vaguely familiar to your average MMO gamer.

So basically what I'm saying is, make the "official developer-written content" level specific, but have it still be possible for Liet to get a Knights Blade for butchering 50 Quant bombers in an Oct shuttle in less than three hours.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Injustice

Scorch suggested we remedy this by making new ships available at the highest level. Apparently it gave everyone a massive brain hemorrage when he used the term "better" light fighter. Even though each and every one of us have our own opinions on which ship is "better" than the rest.

That's because in Jumpgate the ships are relatively balanced (thanks to Istvan's tinkering). Remember that in the Jumpgate Scorch originally made the fighter was the only thing worth fighting in (and thus people had to level up to 26 to pvp). The hemorrhage people are just appropriately concerned that they are going to have to level up to 50 to pvp, and that ND is going to make level and gear more important than skill.

[Tritian]

well Istvan is working on the project also, and Istvan knows all about balancing the ships. So I hope Scorch gives him a listen to when they decide to balance the ships so that they are all useful.

[GrimGriz]

I think we all would have been a lot more comfortable if Istvan had been given lead of the project.

[Tritian]

agreed. the MT patch in it's half-implemented state was a step backwards, but overall I trust Istvan to do the right thing for Jumpgate. He knows the score.

[Jonboy]

Originally Posted by Injustice

There is absolutely no tangible, in-game reason for anyone to level past 40. None. At all. Period.

Why is this so bad? Why should you _need_ to get to 50 before you can do stuff? Or tell me why should I be _forced_ to get to 50 before I can do stuff? Why not just create stuff that people will enjoy and let them decide what is level appropriate (admittedly, dev-hours might be a problem)?

Originally Posted by Injustice

It's not that hard to say "you can't take this mission or begin this quest until you are a certain rank" without relegating the gameplay to being gear dependent.

You can definately have a level requirement on a mission without it making the game gear-based instead of skill-based, particularly if the reward doesn't include gear. But then, why would you restrict the level if I'm good enough to do the mission?

Originally Posted by Injustice

Would it not be logical to assume that, just like in other MMOs, a players "ability" will improve as he or she gains experience? The way I see it, by puting level restrictions on content in Jumpgate Evolution, your not limiting the players options, your helping to expand them. The fluxer that loves to fly light fighters still needs to reach level 30 to do the "Flee from the Fudge Factory of Doom" quest, just like the PvPer that really enjoys flying the Quantar Heavy PIE Slinger needs to be level 32 to fly it.

This comment I can totally agree with. I am completely for having a structured set of missions that will help you learn the skills needed to play. I would be in favour of chained missions - missions which you couldn't start unless you've finished a previous one. However, why not just recommend levels? You could even have a game-option which prevents you from seeing inappropriate level missions until you turn it off.

Originally Posted by Injustice

I'm not gonna rehash this for the sake of hearing myself talk, so to speak. I just firmly believe that it makes sense in the case of Jumpgate Evolution, a game that ND wants to promote "to the masses", that the overall game structure should be something that is at least vaguely familiar to your average MMO gamer.

I agree that the structure has to be there to get people into the game. This adds accessibility and I don't want the game to put people off by it starting out impossible except for vets. I don't think the whole leveling process should be abandoned either. I know that Guild Wars has an option where you can just start as a max-level character, I personally believe that this is too easy, and is pretty exploitable too. Some level of involvement in creating your character is good for immersion.

[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

Why is this so bad? Why should you _need_ to get to 50 before you can do stuff? Or tell me why should I be _forced_ to get to 50 before I can do stuff? Why not just create stuff that people will enjoy and let them decide what is level appropriate (admittedly, dev-hours might be a problem)?

You can definately have a level requirement on a mission without it making the game gear-based instead of skill-based, particularly if the reward doesn't include gear. But then, why would you restrict the level if I'm good enough to do the mission?

It's not forcing you to do anything.

Look, even in Jumpgate Classic we have a degree of "gear dependency". I can't complete a level 40 cargo mission at level 26 without making two trips. There's also the matter of XP/cash rewards to take into account. If I can farm a mission at level 9 that's meant for someone at level 40, that's an exploit. Unless the devs plan on adjusting cash and XP rewards in Jumpgate Evolution based on level, which in and of itself goes contrary to what all of you are asking for in regards to a skill based, vice level-based, system.

But the keynote to this whole argument is that it revolves around the PvP crowd. I doubt there is a hauler in Jumpgate that prefers the fast transport or tow to the freighter when it comes to running cargo. I doubt there are very many professional fluxers that prefer the raven or chirp to the dragon for doing their thing. Same thing goes for arty hunters and miners. Us PvPers are really the only ones with that kind of option available to us. Yet we complain that having to level for better equipment isn't right.

[GrimGriz]

I had asked repeatedly for Istvan to extend the level = choice philosophy to the non-combat ships, and still think it would be a great idea. I think the LM could be made competitive with the HM and better in appropriate situations. I think that the transports should have been given 100 cargo and made faster than the tow to make them a viable alternative. In my opinion, there should be a reason to fly nearly every ship once you're level 50.

Being able to fly 16 ships at level 50 when only 4 of them are useful is much much worse than being able to fly 16 ships at level 50, with 14 of them being useful.

Unless the devs plan on adjusting cash and XP rewards in Jumpgate Evolution based on level, which in and of itself goes contrary to what all of you are asking for in regards to a skill based, vice level-based, system.

How they do missions doesn't really matter to me personally. I just don't want to have to grind all the way to 50 to pvp.

[Jonboy]

Originally Posted by Scorch

As you said, Jumpgate Classic had items and you leveled and earned money to achieve those items. There is a bigger level spread between reasonably even matched ships in Jumpgate Classic than in PvP in WoW for example. WoW however also forces this by artificially changing dice rolls based on level, ie it is harder to hit/damage someone simply because of level regardless of equipment, better equipment simply reinforces the level difference even more.

While this is true, in WoW you level up to your desired level (usually 70) and then concentrate on PvP. So the level difference in PvP is normally irrelevent. There are people who take their time leveling, but in WoW because of the PvP disadvantage, it's normal to not PvP with people much above your level. This means for PvPers that you try to burn through the level grind as quickly as possible. Then the gear-based difference is the only relevent one.

The leveling up _process_ IS important for learning how to play the game. I support missions and carrots to encourage people to learn and level up at the same time.

Originally Posted by Scorch

Obviously Jumpgate will not have any sort of artificial hit or damage modifier based on level, only two factors come into play in combat the ship/equipment and the player skill so in that way I already feel we are not "WoW in space, or EQ in space(which used to be the popular thing to say before WoW came along)."

I'm glad to hear that. What I don't want is a structure which forces you to get the best gear in order to play. If you are forced to get better gear, then you are reducing the game to _only_ getting gear, as gear trumps skill. I'm trying to say that that is what WoW has become; even tho it is moderately fun. If that is how you want to keep people in the game, I'll be disappointed. In my opinion, the market is full of this type of game, and a fresh approach will win praise.

Originally Posted by Scorch

So some random personal thoughts along what you are asking here:
-so what level difference is "OK" for equipment to matter? Lets just take gun damage vs shield damage and recharge rate to keep the conversation simple. Obviously a starter gun vs the best shield in the game will never be able to do enough damage to get through the shields before they recharge (though several players with several of these guns could get through), at least this is what I would expect. The question for you guys is in your opinion what level range should this particular effect (of guns doing less damage than shield recharge) happen. 5 levels, 15, 25? The more levels you spread it out, the less the new equipment matters because it has to be barely better to keep the spread in line which lowers the perceived value of attaining the new equipment. I personally like something that at low levels the damage would increase rapidly but then begin a very gradual drop off around mid-level where working towards the items available at the last few levels being very minor in their difference so that level matters less and less the higher the level.

This is a tough question to answer. In Jumpgate Classic, after the LF/MF/F rebalance, things worked. However, it was not as simple a question as a 'should a person in a LF lose to a person in a MF?" We cheated. The low end ships could fit high level equipment. My suggestion to you is that you look again at certification, rather than level requirements. I.e. you can specialise in lasers to get the high level lasers in the ship you really want, quickly - although I personally haven't tried such a system.

In Jumpgate Classic, there was a variety of sz1 guns, they weren't only relevent to lowbie pilots, at 50 you could fly a MF with the best sz1 guns. There was low level equipment, but after a certain level, instead of equipment being "better" it was "different." You can shuffle around fire rates, and ranges, as well as pure damage done. The answer then to the question "what level is best for this change?" was level 18. By 26, you had pretty much everything you needed. But in fact, the answer is arbitrary.

Originally Posted by Scorch

-I also think that had their been more ships in Jumpgate Classic your opinion might be adjusted here. If there was a "better" light fighter at 50, a "better" medium fighter at 50 and they both had cool roles then it would not be about light fighters being worse than medium but instead one light fighter being better than the other which I personally think is OK, actually I think its really cool and reinforces advancement while still allowing players to choose the play style suited to them. The nimble fighter vs the armored weapons array, both sound cool to me. I feel one of the issues of Jumpgate Classic is that if you like light fighters there is no "better" ships as you progress so once you get the ship you want higher levels does not often open anything new for your play style.

Having different medium fighters at different levels would rule. One doesn't have to be 'better' than the other. You can have personal progression by being able to fly all of them, and choosing which suits you best, and choosing which looks the coolest. In the example you've given, you've stopped reinforcement of advancement at 50, which to me is as arbitrary as stopping advancement at 26. The game doesn't stop at 50, you still have to provide content and drive