[Ambrosius]

The whole concept of economic warfare has been hotly debated in Jumpgate Classic. Some have felt that the ability to limit the opponents ability to make war is good for the game; others protest that they want a full supply of optimal equipment all the time.

Should the devs facilitate Economic Warfare in Jumpgate Evolution by building-in features that place bounty on strippers and remove or restric their insurance (thus removing the "lameness"), automate export embargoes for enemy nations and expand the function onf the scanner to place aggressor tags on those who are scanned and found with such contraband? (I'm sure there are other ideas on doing this, this is just a quick few I have had.)

[Ratneck]

I voted no, assuming that there will be actual factional warfare and Sol players at war with Oct won't be able to dock there and vice versa. My opinion is for the PvP server, not for PvE though.

I don't think people should be limited in what they can buy or sell at a station. How do you determine they're not buying up all the shields to stock their squad's POS? I don't think there should be rules against buying "legal" commodities in any quantity.

[ELPIRATA]

Rat: I dont think you understand well the concept, but in what you describe, sols at war with oct shouldnt be able to dock at oct core, thats like allowing a Mig 29 landing rights to the Nimitz Carrier.

The subject at hand deals with allowing squads/factions/nations to visit the enemy station (cargo pilots would do this kind of stuff) and buyout a certain needed component for sol craft. Of course, this would mean that oct escorts would be around the ship to protect it (which is one of the most fun you can get out of a combat).

Ambro is asking for mechanics that allow the game to tag individuals so that the defense force can shoot them down as with any other combat ship. Economic wars in Jumpgate Classic have ranged from stripping equipment down to even some essential commods that limit that faction's production.

So, I voted YES. When the MT patch was launched, I participated in a lot of ore raids missions and procurement and it was a blast. It was awesome to see squads interact and protect each other so that those cargo ships would complete their mission.

The problem in Jumpgate Classic is that the ones who engage in econ warfare dont get tagged and as such, if you kill one of them you get a huge hit, which shouldnt happen either.

ELP

[Ambrosius]

Well, for instance, an anti-stripping feature could be that anyone buying more than [10?] non-local items when stock falls below [100u] would be warned by the station master that they must return the items, and if they <continue launch> they will be assigned a bounty.

I believe there are ways to manage economic warfare within the game engine so that:

a) you limit the opportunity to completely deplete an item (Duelists, for example), but do have "non-lame" ways of making the supply very limited for your enemy; and

b) you create an interesting way for haulers (who are interested) to maximize profits (and perhaps adrenaline) by smuggling contraband between warring nations.

[Ratneck]

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

Rat: I dont think you understand well the concept, but in what you describe, sols at war with oct shouldnt be able to dock at oct core, thats like allowing a Mig 29 landing rights to the Nimitz Carrier.

I fully understand the concept. I said it a little un-clearly but what I was saying is that assuming there is actual war between the factions (or nations or whatever they want to call them now) then a Sol wouldn't be able to dock at an Oct station and vice versa. No docking means no stripping. I'd go so far as to say the station should fire on all "enemy" ships that enter the sector or come within a certain distance of the station.

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

The subject at hand deals with allowing squads/factions/nations to visit the enemy station (cargo pilots would do this kind of stuff) and buyout a certain needed component for sol craft. Of course, this would mean that oct escorts would be around the ship to protect it (which is one of the most fun you can get out of a combat).

I know station stripping. I like to fly tows, so I've stocked a station only to see the stock disappear. I've also made nukes just to have them disappear when one person decides to buy them all. It sucks when it happens but should they also include a tag for all people who crap on matter farms so that the matter farmers can shoot them when they launch?

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

The problem in Jumpgate Classic is that the ones who engage in econ warfare dont get tagged and as such, if you kill one of them you get a huge hit, which shouldnt happen either.

ELP

I'm not looking at this from a PvE "you can't shoot people" perspective. I'm looking at it from a "everyone's a valid target" PvP perspective. I highly doubt a faction would look kindly on the "sinking of the Lucitania", weather you call it a ship carrying civilian cargo or a military mission.

If you want to shoot at Oct pilots in oct space, you loose rep with the Oct faction and have a harder time docking and pay higher taxes...perhaps you even appear red to oct pilots....well, pink I suppose would be the color to piss them off.

If you shoot Sol pilots in "civilian" vessels, I would think the Sol gov't wouldn't be overly happy. You may have your reasons, but I doubt they'd care.

I can see implementing a system like a sliding price scale for a commodity. If there are 50 to 100 of a shield left, the price is X, and under 50 the price goes up by y% for non-aligned factions and z% for home factions. I can't see saying someone is now bountied because they purchased a legal and available product. You might as well disregard the economy then and get rid of tows and miners if you're going to artifically limit who can buy what.

I think other tools, like POS markets, would be a better solution.

[ELPIRATA]

Yeah, the thing in Jumpgate Classic is that during war cargo ships could dock at enemy stations, but fighters couldnt, which was odd too because pirates could dock everywhere. I somehow mistaken you with a guy who hasnt played Jumpgate Classic before, my bad.

[Ambrosius]

Well the issue with Jumpgate Classic is that game design expects everyone to be a factionalist to some degree, but individual RPs were non-factional, so no one wanted factional politics to affect them and whined loudly at every idea that would enforce factionalism.

[Ratneck]

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

Yeah, the thing in Jumpgate Classic is that during war cargo ships could dock at enemy stations, but fighters couldnt, which was odd too because pirates could dock everywhere. I somehow mistaken you with a guy who hasnt played Jumpgate Classic before, my bad.

Easy mistake to make, I've been off again and on again with a few different names (I forgot my name in Beta -> Launch, MrYuk was the name I had when I was in MACK, and Ratneck was my more recent name when I didn't feel like waiting for Billing to fix my "MrYuk" Pilot so I could reactivate it).

I'm not disagreeing with you on the Jumpgate Classic mechanics, I'm just saying that the Jumpgate Evolution mechanics should keep warring nations from docking at each other's stations.

If people don't want to abide by the "war" between the nations that's fine, but that wouldn't mean the other nation would lift the docking restriction because of it.

I think that if a commodity is available then anyone should be able to buy it. Limiting who can buy what at what time and based on what quantity adds too many rules. What happens if a newbie sees 50 uranium and needs to get it to complete a cargo mission....then he gets there and is told he can't buy it unless he wants to be a criminal? He's not trying to strip a station, he's simply trying to complete a mission. Now he's got to find more Uranium and fly to another station to buy it and complete his mission, when he could have just gone somewhere else in the first place.

I think POS's are good enough to help combat stripping so long as they can hold enough "stuff" and have enough docking options to allow/disallow whoever the owner wants.

I think I need more info on Jumpgate Evolution before I'd think there needed to be a system to combat a problem that may not even exist in the new game.

[dahalb]

Economic warfare definitely has a place.

nuff sed

[-Vomir-]

Economic Warfare sounds great. In Jumpgate Classic it sometimes worked, sometimes it was completely bad. If there is a system that actually handles it (rather than Squads discussing the "events" beforehands) you will have to make it extremely clever for it to work at both, high and low, online numbers scenarios.

[Ratneck]

I still don't understand why limits should be placed on buying at NPC run stations. I just read this post on the Jumpgate Evolution forums:

Codemasters forum - Stuff from the AGDC

Where I pulled this section:

Crafting

Stations are only going to sell basic stuff and low level equipment so new players have gear available. As you progress in levels and move on to better ships, equipment becomes totally player made. Factories are going to be spread out all over the place such that some factories will be difficult to reach due to hostile presence in the area, etc... Factories will also be able to be blockaded by enterprising squads seeking to control a section of the market. The plan is to have equipment built at the factory to be the least costly