[GrimGriz]

From a thread where this as a reply would have been off topic:

Originally Posted by TexMurphy

Through game design there should be made more and new ways to integrate players not more ways to segregate the community. Haulers and fighter pilots should really need each other. The fighter pilot should really need the haulers delivery and the hauler should really need the fighter pilot to deliver.

Also we gonna see the PvP vs PvE barrier diminish in the future. AI will be able to do exactly what players do. There will be AI escort pilots, haulers, pirates, faction attackers, faction defenders, ect, ect.

It's too late at night/early in the morning for me to be eloquent about it, but how are the players going to matter at all if everyone can be replaced by a bot?

[daslog]

That's the point Griz. Jumpgate was supposed to be all player driven. We players quickly proved that we were more interested in exploiting game mechanics (matter farming, random civ ripping) than in being part of Virtual living, breathing sandbox.

NetDevil is without a doubt looking at this failed model, and coming up with something that doesn't rely on the players for everything.

[TexMurphy]

Thanks for spliting this into a topic of its own.

I see this as a two part thing. First its the effect on the economy second is the effect on the community.

Lets start with the economy.

For JGs economy to be totally player driven there has to be miners mining the ore and haulers processing minerals and commods into new commods and eventually into equip.

If players dont want to mine the economy fails. If there arnt enough miners the economy fails. To deal with this we have had commod spawns. Commod spawns where hard to ballance as they where X times a base number per server cycle.

In a world where NPCs do what PCs dont want to do and the example from above is true, players dont want to mine. Then NPC miners come out and mine. Imho thats alot better then spawned commods.

If there was a shortage of haulers then Jumpgate Classic didnt really have a way to deal with it other then changing the recepies so that the few commods that got hauled created more commods/equip. Best example of this is FF production, its been tweaked back and forth to create shortages/remove shortages.

Now instead of fiddling with recepies NPCs come out and haul some of the stuff that needs to be hauled.

Imho this is great because I can start hitting supply lines in combat. Attack NPC haulers and miners to cripple a factions production. So if a nation is over represented in fighter pilots then they better defend their NPC merchants or they wount have any equip.

I think that is a good tradeoff. Figther pilots arnt forced into tows/freighters/miners inorder to make the economy go round. Now they just have to defend the ones doing the work they dont wana do.

Imho that is good. Much better then spawns.

Also the fact that I can pick up a escort or two when ever I feel I need one regardless of if there are any PCs willing to escort me is also great. Id rather fly stock a unreg station with NPC escort then alone.

Whats important is that this function doesnt replace players. It has to COMPLEMENT the players. A faction that has a good ballance between miners, haulers, fighters should have a distinct advantage over a faction that has a shortage of either type of pilot.

Now what does it do to the community. Well its gonna introduce a gray area between PvP and PvE thats gonna be very interesting. In Jumpgate Classic PvE combat is fluxing, PvP combat is shooting down sol/oct/quant ships period. The distinction is easy.

In Jumpgate Evolution PvE combat will still be fluxing but also shooting down sol/oct/quant ships. Players will be fighting NPC Pirates, NPC faction space defense forces, pirating NPCs and Civ Ripping NPCs.

You wount be able to say "Im just here to fight the NPC pirates so you PC pirates go away and leave me alone". Nore will you be able to say that you are down in quant space to just attack Quant NPC sector defenses.

PvP and PvE will blend together much more.

This imho is gonna be very interesting to see.

Is there really a difference in "destroying a NPC freighter full of equipment stocking Quant Core" and "destroying a PC freighter full of equipment stocking Quant Core". From a cold and purly strategical perspective... no there is no difference. From a more humane perspective weighing in that the time of the PC is actually worth more then the time of the NPC, well definatly a difference. Its gonna be interesting.

Tex

[Jump]

I'm sure how players fit in will all be worked out in beta. But I think it will be really cool to see activity somewhere and everywhere so it looks like a real civilization. A space station should be a busy place 24 hours a day, even if much of it is just backdrop to appease the eyes of the real players.

[Nafcon]

Jump got the point, why not wait for the beta to damn NPC-ships... I mean if it works we will have our fun with it as Tex wrote. If it doesn't work we can discuss it again and ND will have to decide wether they wanna keep NPC-ships or not...

Further I don't believe that a NPC can replace a Wingmate...

[vorlon31]

its scalable, the more we do, the less they do and vica verca if I understand it right.

I think its going to be a lot of fun weaving rp's around a 'living' universe for a change.

The possibilities and potentials for interaction with, for and against the galaxies non players are (if my imagination is tuned in right) going to be plentiful and that will add to the game greatly whilst still leaving vast scope for pure player player interactions too.

If anyone has ever played one of the mod'd freelancer servers operating persistantly you will understand how all that extra ai goings on make for a more interesting environment completely.

[Powo]

I would only expect the AI to do just the basic mining and hauling jobs to make a mark for the economy but not as fast as any player would expect instantly but a slow-medium progress. Additionally players could mine as well in order to speed up the progress.

AIs could also be good for shooting down anyone with a large negative PR rating at playable factional home stations and stations that are placed somewhere in the triangle sectors just in case if any random person wants to shoot low levels in weak ships down for no reason despite the harsh penalties.

But seriously, the game would be a lot more fun if combat(with flyable ships only) was to be done by players only. As the player base grows larger and larger in the future like or more than what we had in the days of 2002, we might not even need AIs for that.

[Wild_Bill]

I hope it works out the way Tex sees it, especially with Vorlon's interpretation. I'd enjoy playing in that game.

GG I think you are worrying too much and too soon. I hope so anyway. I know that no matter how it's done or how well it's done, some of us are going to be disappointed. IMO the biggest problem with the current economy (okay, say as of January this year) was a lack of enough miners/haulers etc. Perhaps as Ambro says, there simply weren't enough consumers. I didn't see it that way but he could have been right. With the AI there should always be enough consumers and probably enough miners/haulers/producers. And enough AI protectors for escorts or defense against the lawless or foreign hostiles.

The thing about AI's, as the flux have proved, is they just aren't as GOOD as live people. I've killed tens of thousands of flux, but only shot down 4 other pilots (one was civ, other was a GM. Only two were REAL combat pilots, if poor ones). So like Powo said, AIs can do the basics, but to get it done faster, better etc, you need PCs.

[daslog]

It's actually easier to Make AI that can pwn any player than it is to make balanced AI.

[Ambrosius]

Balance will be key. Unless Jumpgate Evolution has a huge, actively-consuming player base, AI could easily wipe out player impact on the econ.

As far as AI fighers (police?), IMO that's a bit easier to keep in check. I figure they will be used primarily to help create safe zones in and around faction station sectors.

[Aphelion]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

I've killed tens of thousands of flux, but only shot down 4 other pilots (one was civ, other was a GM. Only two were REAL combat pilots, if poor ones).

WB is such a liar. I swear that he shot me down in his HM one time with a pair of those sz5 ammo guns... what where they called again? Flails? Anyway, yeah, liar!

[Wild_Bill]

Aphelion, YOU were one of my two real kills? OMG did I ever get lucky THAT time. Now who was that other one....? I actually had another kill, but it turned out it was a disco situation. I had GMK remove it from my stats as unworthy. I think it was GG but I'm not positive.

You know, that brings to mind an interesting stat that's not tracked (currently TTBOMK), who killed who. It's announced in sector only. THAT would be a good stat to keep as well. You could detect a pattern more quickly that way as to any possible griefing. If one pilot is consistently and regularily shooting down a specific pilot, it might be worth investigation by the GMs.