[Tim]

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

Your compromise is not completely dissimilar to that which was put in place in Eve. I see it working better, however, when space is HUGE rather than Jumpgate-size.

But, frankly, my "space should be dangerous" opinion really was formed by Ambro the hauler, not Ambro the factionalist fighter.

Agreed.. especially as that huge space would most likely have some draws which would make it very lucrative if not at some point necessary to venture into.

Also, rather than simply throwing in an invulnerability thing, perhaps it could be arranged such that some of those NPC's we keep hearing about provide so much protection in the sector that civ-ripping becomes impossible. (Repair craft which are extremely fast and can repair a ton of damage in a real hurry.. attack craft which can down anything that moves, etc.) You know.. some in-game RP-ish stuff.

[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Tim

Agreed.. especially as that huge space would most likely have some draws which would make it very lucrative if not at some point necessary to venture into.

Also, rather than simply throwing in an invulnerability thing, perhaps it could be arranged such that some of those NPC's we keep hearing about provide so much protection in the sector that civ-ripping becomes impossible. (Repair craft which are extremely fast and can repair a ton of damage in a real hurry.. attack craft which can down anything that moves, etc.) You know.. some in-game RP-ish stuff.

Actually, I would rather it be the other way around when it comes to NPC's. You can be invulnerable in your own factions space, but nothing's stopping me from flying into your core station sector and blowing up all your shipping, either. This is the one aspect of having a safe zone policy in place that makes it tolerable to players like me. If I'm chasing someone and they run and hide in their own faction space, at least I can content myself with blowing up a bunch of bots to stir the pot. The game would broadcast warning messages to players of that faction that their space was under attack.

This, by the way, is almost an exact parallel of the system used on PvP servers in WoW, and anyone who's played WoW on a PvP server knows about the mass chaos that can and almost always does ensue when someone spontaneously decides "Hey, lets go raid an alliance town". It's a popular setup that's familiar to a lot of MMO gamers, and it gives everybody what they want.

I would add that players running FM's would need to be PvP tagged in order to allow that kind of RP warfare (Quants want to stop the production of the Injustice CP, for example).

[biteme]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

I'm still of the opinion that there should be 2 servers, one with invulnerable civilians and one without civilians. If you don't like being ripped on the PvP server, you can move to the PvE server, instead of to a new game. People who don't want to get attacked when civilian just aren't going to change their minds. People who like danger will always like danger.

220 posts into the thread and no new ideas.

I'd be sad that the community would be split, but i'd I think ND would keep more customers this way. I'd rather the two economies were split tho.

I though I was the only one who thought that. It's odivious this problem will never get solved by game design.

[Karash]

There should be no such thing as a "civ".

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by biteme

I though I was the only one who thought that. It's odivious this problem will never get solved by game design.

To me it's kind of obvious. You decide what you want your game to be and design it to attract the intended audience. What you don't try to do is to satisfy everyone -- and the LAST thing you want to do is to try to satisfy Ambro.



@Karash, are you saying there should be no tags? Because right now, "civ" is the absence of Military or Pirate tags.

[Smaggler]

There is a game design decision that could work for both. Its not been presented in this discussion i don't believe.

Make everyone not be able to attack anyone unless a sector is somehow put into a 'conflict' mode. Pirates of the Burning Sea is using a similar system. You have to put some substantial work into it but once you do it an area can be considered 'in conflict'. And if its one of the only ways from point A to Point B through "safe" space now there's no "safe" route perse. Unless the people that "own" the zone can pull it out of 'conflict' state.

I'm not sure exactly how Jumpgate could do this, but the concept in a more cohesive manner is this:

Normal route from point A to point B is through sector space owned by the Sols. The only alternative route is through unreg space.

Squad "Solssuck" decides to start putting that zone into conflict. First level is military vessels can fire on each other, the more conflict or perhaps the more kills in the zone the higher the state of conflict for that sector of space rises until it becomes "unregulated".

Now the "unregulated" status stays as such until Sols can "retake and secure" the zone. In which case it slowly devolves from unregulated back to conflict and finally back to normal state.

In this fashion you could take it a step further and say if its remains "unregulated" and is not brought under control by the Sols but IS brought under control by the Quants it starts to become Quantar terrirtory.

in this way we can create a somewhat dynamic map.

Now... you can through faction status toward each other on top of this if you like etc...

But the mechanic allows people to make the game what they wish. If people want a peaceful game they can go through the work of controlling that sector.

-S

[WileE]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

220 posts into the thread and no new ideas.

Because this debate has been going on since the tags were implemented.

I don't see this ever being resolved unless you can go back in time and either remove the tags completely or put in a civ chip, so then no one knows another way.

I said it before. There is only one way to ensure no civ ever has to go through the trauma of being shot down. Civ invulnerability...that's it. There is no other way to guarantee, beyond a shadow of a doubt that they will never be shot at ever, ever. The problem is, there are more lame ass civ-tagged pilots that do lame ass things than are HG pilots. If civs get invulerability, you can expect that to expand exponentially, as there will be no ramifications for your actions.

Something interesting to think about. If you split the servers, logically you would end up with one server having a robust economy (due to the number of pilot deaths and pirating and whatnot), while the other server would have no economy at all, except for nuke and missile usage. Let's be realistic for a moment, fluxers and invulnerable haulers do not use much gear, period. If you don't use gear, you don't need gear made. If you don't need production, you don't need raw materials.

Like it or not, the "civs" need the PvP crowd as much as the PvP'ers need the civs. PvP'ers have to accept some responsibility to protect the civs, and the civs have to come down from their high horse and accept that space is dangerous, and with good reason.

I like the idea that at the cores of factional space, you are basically invulnerable, though not because of where you are. I like the idea of military AI and missions for pilots that create a dense region of protection at the cores, then as you move further away from the core, you have less and less protection, until you reach unreg, which is anything goes. This allows for safe regions while allowing for more dynamic play as well.

Meh. The best thing ND could do now, IMO, is to just come out and say "We are doing this" and let the chips fall where they may. All the debate is doing is further entrenching either side that their way is the only way.

So much for games being fun.

[GrimGriz]

I'm with Karash, but I think in order to remove the tags you have to give the haulers and miners turrets. They were designed to be inferior in Jumpgate TRI, and that's why they needed the tag system to protect them.

[Wild_Bill]

Ambro, I didn't misunderstand, I was simply asking for examples of how you'd handle it. WileE said "escorts". I'm okay with that, either PC or NPC, as long as you can always get one at an affordable price. What are your mechanisms? What are your alternatives to the shepherd and sheepdog of my analogy?

I don't want a "safe" server; or a civ chip either. A RP civ rip is acceptible to me (as when I civ-ripped the FM disruptor). An OOC/IC civ rip (such as when I repeatedly attacked Balrog verbally (?) in the forums and in-game and had an artied freighter shot out from under me in OutPost sector by a Balrog pilot) is also acceptable. Getting shot down in unreg is acceptable. I want something that will severely handicap the "just because I felt like it" civ-rip. I want people who prey on other pilots not capable of defending themselves to suffer as well. But I don't want to be safe all the time, everywhere either.

I know some of you must remember Elite and how some systems were fairly safe, others had varying degrees of danger and some were just about guaranteed pod rides (at least at lower levels). I would like something similar, where pilots who mind their manners and only operate in areas with "street lights and cops" are "reasonably safe" from the threat of random attack in home sector or faction sector space and can mine, haul, produce for low to moderate profits. Where profit is matched with risk.

This is good for the skill-less griefers who none the less wish to remain in game. If they attack non-combat pilots in home faction space, they have a very high chance of being downed/penalized themselves. If the non-combat pilot choses to go where the profits are higher, and choses to increase the profit/risk by NOT hiring an escort (pilot or NPC), then the "griefer" faces a much lower chance of being downed and a much lower penalty. If our little "sheep" wanders completely out of the pasture and into the woods, the "wolf" gets a free meal with little or no risk of shepherd or sheepdog interferring.

I don't want to make it impossible to civ-rip someone who annoys you or interferes with your game play. I do want to make it VERY painful to do so repeatedly or make a game-style of shooting down non-combatants. I don't want to make it impossible to attack home stations, but I want the risks (and rewards) for the attackers to be high.

History is full of examples of military (or pirate/outlaw) raids deep into settled areas. There are plenty of examples of lawlessness the further away from civilized areas you get as well. My idea is in no way unique. I'd just like to see "safe" areas, "risky" areas and "deadly" areas where non-combatants can make an associated low, moderate or high profit from conducting operations there. I'm certainly not opposed to escorts or turrets etc if there is some mechanism to get said escorts whenever you want/need them. Currently there are not enough combat pilots available or willing to do mining escort missions in Jumpgate Classic. Who knows what Jumpgate Evolution will be like?

I've mentioned it before on other threads as a embellishment of Jump's idea of space, but I want to see cities, towns and hamlets surrounded and/or seperated by areas of wilderness where dangerous beasts and outlaws abide. I want to see disputed lands or border areas between major powers, etc. I do NOT want to see seperate servers where you are either always safe or always in danger.

My vision of Jumpgate Evolution would be one where through bounties, bounty hunters, PC patrolmen and NPC "police", there would be areas where commerce could be transacted in relative safety surrounded by areas of greater risk to commerce surrounded by areas of very high risk with mission profit determined by mission risk. I want a Jumpgate Evolution where you expand (and defend) your factions space through unregulated areas that seperate faction space and conflux dominated sectors/space. Where you can build faction stations like the trading posts/forts of the American Old West and defend them from attacks by native hostiles as well as invading armies. Sort of a combination of the American Old West with Medieval Europe/Middle East but with space ships and aliens thrown in.

[Lordopic]

Originally Posted by WileE

he civs have to come down from their high horse and accept that space is dangerous, and with good reason.

Been flying civ most of my Jumpagte career and have been cived ,( in reg space that is I don’t count Unreg deaths as civing) As for two servers I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again NO NO NO and THRICE NO.

Its going to happen and no amount of forum posting is going to change it and please ND don’t turn Evaluation in to carebears in space.

[Ulysses]

I thought the bounty idea was a good incentive for the players to police civ-rippers. Although it did make it a pain to kill someone trying to claim your bounty under Civ tags (you end up worse). But, that depends on players to go out and kill the civ-ripper, which isn't always reliable.

It'd be nice to see faction patrols in faction space, keeping the paths somewhat safe for lowbies or civilian pilots. Would add a nice touch of immersion to the game too.