[Istanbul]

I think any turrets controlled by AI would be a less than stellar idea... they'd go off shooting at someone you didn't want them to shoot at. However turrets that you can control via remote control from the rear camera (i'm thinking just one turret on tow, hm and frt). Even if it's just one gun, enough to keep people from just squatting in a big ships aft quarter. People keep on comparing Jumpgate pirates etc. to the pirates of the olden days. Well, back then most cargo ships carried a fair amount of cannon and defenders as well. It was the very bold pirate who attacked a spanish galleon, and a highly skilled one who did it successfully.

Atm the only merchant vessels that stand a chance are empty ones, with the exception of the frt. it has a big enough shield and hull that it can usually survive long enough to make it to a gate and at the very least gate hop until help arrives. (unless there's multiple people attacking it)

[Radi]

Originally Posted by Istanbul

... with the exception of the frt. it has a big enough shield and hull that it can usually survive long enough to make it to a gate and at the very least gate hop until help arrives. (unless there's multiple people attacking it)

Nope, even the freighter is helpless if the attacker has a HF and ammo.

[Gander]

Originally Posted by Dedsquirrl

When I went after my shards, you know how scared I was?
I was wearin SN tags, loaded to the gills with ore, with a few cutties for squid defense.
I probably would have cried if Yokom or Xerout showed up.
And it was fun as heck.
How awesome is a game that gives you the shakes because you are mining in one sector and you see RazorX getting bountied just one sector away.

I wouldn't want to deny that kind of anxious excitement from anyone.

That might have been fun for you, but it's not going to be fun for everyone. Not everyone is into being scared or anxious at the computer. It probably won't be fun for a whole lot of people. And people don't play games that aren't fun. If we want the new game to be successful we need lots of new players.

I think we can take a lesson from EvE here. There are lots of places that are almost completely safe. There are lots of other places that vary between that and certain death for anyone that dares venture there without a fleet. The more risk one is willing to take, the greater the reward. It's completely possible to never, ever venture out of safe space. Bland, boring, but that's how some people want to play.

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by Gander

I think we can take a lesson from EvE here. There are lots of places that are almost completely safe.

I quit Eve once I started hearing about the "high sector suiside gankings" Not sure if that has changed or not, but in my time playing I have seen every just about every sort of "finding the loop hole" trick in the book to kill those that didn't want to PvP.

Pictures of Rollio and his fly into the mining lasers to give little quant noob a temp bounty so he could kill free kept coming to mind.

[Liet]

Just remember that the more ingame limitations and rules you come up with, the more you damage legitimate civving. If you are hauling equipment for a squad I am at war with, and you're silly enough to do it unescorted, you deserve to die. If you're running a controversial FM mission, other faction pilots might be out to kill you to slow down the effort. If you're stripping a station, there's no alternative but for someone to civ you.

The current system is so bogged down with idiotic limitations that it's impossible to be successful PoDing unless you fly like a pansy and never, ever give anyone the opportunity to down you. That's not fun for anyone involved (if you fly like this and enjoy it, you're a pansy).

I don't mind making non-combat ships more resilient. That buys them more time for friends to arrive, to cut a deal with the person attacking them, or to run deepspace. But in the end, non-combat ships should not win against combat ships.

Also, nerfing tow speed was dumb. Deepspacing was the only option tow pilots had, and if one managed to get away from me doing it, more power to them. This also gave tow pilots a reason to choose light commods, or to choose a tow over a freighter.

[Wild_Bill]

Much as I hate to admit it, Liet has a very strong point. I'm a non-combat pilot by choice. I do not expect to win when attacked by a fighter. I do NOT like getting shot down, losing 25% of my cargo value and having to re-equip. What I REALLY don't like though is wasting all the time I had invested in either mining or hauling. If it happens for a good RP purpose (FM run, Matt Farm, or even just mouthing off at a better gunfighter) I will be unhappy but I can deal with it. Getting a pod ride simply because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time is not something I wish to deal with. Having it happen repeatedly for whatever reason, RP or not, is a deal breaker.

Adding turrets to HM, Tow or Tug is a good thing. Having the Turret AI modeled on Flux aimbots wouldn't be too bad. They always seem to know who's shooting at them and they usually manage to get the first few hits on me in a close range pass, so I don't see that as a major problem. Multiple MS mounts on HM, Tow or Tug wouldn't be too bad either. Defense Drones would also work. Police AI would be nice, as would Combat Missions triggered by the appearance of a bountied pilot or pirate in faction sectors. Escort missions should also be available. Not just asking for an escort, but an actual mission to do so. Exploitable? Yeah, so what? Also, bountied pilots or pirates should count towards a combat mission (if they don't already, I really don't know). I'd also like to see a system that keeps track of who shoots who, how often and have it monitored by a GM. I support heavy penalties for civ-rips, but believe it should be possible if you're willing to pay the price. Some folks NEED to be civ-ripped and the game should include mechanics that allow this.

Bottom line though is what Liet said. Non-combat ships cannot be expected to win in confrontations with even one combat ship. Then again, InterOrca's use of Nukes is interesting and effective... the first time.

[WileE]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

Giving miners and haulers teeth doesn't make space less dangerous. Trust me, if you put turrets on the miners people will expect to have to use them. Right now, they can say "oh, this ship has no defenses, I guess people will leave me alone when I fly it." If you live in the wild wild west, you're stupid not to have a gun in your wagon.

It should require 1 skilled pilot to take down a miner or freighter, but he should be in armor when it's over. I shouldn't be able to take you out in a miner unless I get some lucky missle hits.

I can be in a fighter with a wingman and I'll still get nervous if I see Liet or Magnus-Ex jump into the sector. You don't need to be completely defenseless to worry what's around the corner.

Putting all kinds of weapons onto "non-combat" ships will create a balance nightmare. A dollar will get you five you will see gank fleets of tows with all their new weaponry. That is not to mention basically aiding strippers as well.

I am going to use a "back in the day" reference, so be advised...

Back in the day, when numbers were fairly high, you could be a hauler and have little problems. This was mostly accomplished through diplomacy and numbers. I don't recall alot of MACK or GOD guys having problems getting civ'ed. While there were occasional pirate episodes, there were enough RP "Good Guys" to balance the RP "Bad Guys". The problem has always been when that balance goes too far one way or the other.

In my opinion, the most simple solution is a vibrant player base, and dramatically higher payouts for mining and hauling NEEDED COMMODITIES (note the emphasis). If the payout is small, then there is little monies to go around to a couple escorts and the hauler. If the payouts increased by a factor of 3 (for instance), then you could conceivably earn a full share for flying wing. That is alot more incentive. Add some PR to that, and it becomes a profession.

I always thought the idea was to improve player interaction and reliance...not to turn this into a single player game with other people.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by WileE

Putting all kinds of weapons onto "non-combat" ships will create a balance nightmare. A dollar will get you five you will see gank fleets of tows with all their new weaponry. That is not to mention basically aiding strippers as well.

First of all, I have no problem with a gank fleet of tows/HMs. Bombers don't have to be just for structures as far as I'm concerned. If 1 player gets in a fight with 1 player, whether or not either of them explodes should be a toss up, regardless of ship. I hope the notion at least gets a fair shake in beta. The idea of making strafing runs (and having to make strafing runs) at a tow with a turret sounds like fun to me.

Here's a FACT from the past: Rollio was running people out of the game in open beta, when it was FREE. Sometimes I almost wish you guys would hand me a pair of the rose-colored glasses. Either way, it's up to ND. Personally, I hope they learn from the past. It's not to hard to figure out that people don't enjoy being defenseless victims.

[WileE]

Here's a FACT, If Rollio was running that many people out of the game, Rollio should have been dealt with by Themis/ND/GM-At-Large. If any player is doing that much damage to the game, they should be booted...period. That is not a problem of ship balance, or armed transports, but of management.

To say that any one ship should be able to fight any other 1 ship and either has a chance to win makes no sense at all. If every ship has an equal measure of combat ability, then we are basically making 1 ship to do everything, as everyone will gravitate to the one ship that does everything well. When you add in going to the extremes of the scales, say Ranger on Tow for instance, the ranger should never, ever win. If it could, then it will be incredibly overpowered against any other ship.

Ships should have strengths and weaknesses, and all ships should not do all things. IMO, any and all combat ships should have a cargo of 1, for transport-type missions. They are not designed to haul...they are to fight. Cargo ships haul cargo from point A to point B. They are not combat craft, and should not be used as such by the normal pilot. Variety is the key. As far as I am concerned, the solution to the problem should not be an increase in the weapons of the non-combat craft, rather perhaps an increase in the defense of the ship. The non-combat ships additional guns should ideally come from other players. That, as I see it, should be the Holy Grail ND is looking for.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by WileE

Here's a FACT, If Rollio was running that many people out of the game, Rollio should have been dealt with by Themis/ND/GM-At-Large. If any player is doing that much damage to the game, they should be booted...period. That is not a problem of ship balance, or armed transports, but of management.

You'll have to take that up with ND, Rollio was on the test team for pete's sake.

To say that any one ship should be able to fight any other 1 ship and either has a chance to win makes no sense at all.

I didn't say that. I said whether or not either one explodes.

Turrets are defenses. A fighter pilot would have to be foolish to sit there and go nose to nose with a turret. The job of a turret would be to chase fighters away from what they are protecting (the miner/hauler vessel). If you die to a tow with a turret, that's your bad. Can the turret prevent you from destroying the miner/hauler...maybe. If he could keep you on the side of his ship the turret was on and aim well enough to hit you every time you got close. Could he slow his demise long enough that help could arrive from 1-3 sectors away? Probably, depending on the tow's pilots turretting/ecm skills I would expect. Is he a sitting duck for you by yourself, absolutely not. Is he a sitting duck for you and a buddy or two, yeah, but he gets to go down swinging. That's good, because it's a hell of a lot better to be a victim than it is to be a helpless victim.

Also consider this, if miners and haulers aren't completely defenseless, the penalties for attacking them wouldn't need to be...much of anything. There wouldn't be pvpers and non-pvpers. There would be assault and patrol combatants, resource gathering combatants, and logistic combatants.

Even if we aren't fighting each other we're still at war with the conflux. Space is a dangerous place, ALL ships should be designed accordingly.

We'll probably continue to disagree, but I've seen what happens when you make half the players defenseless.

[WileE]

As far as Rollio is concerned, and any other "bad apple", I don't think you can pin the failings of management on the pilots at large. I can tell you that if I had a game that had that someone who was causing masses to leave, they would be gone in a heartbeat. That is simple community management, which is something that Jumpgate has sorely been lacking, almost from day one.

I could possibly go with turrets as you describe them, if you had them instead of front-facing guns. Miners would have to have a specific mining hardpoint for mining lasers. The catch is, I don't see your giving away of civ penalties lasting very long. After the first ship or two goes down in a blaze of glory, there will be calls for more and more protection for those who do not wish to be fired upon, ever. While I cannot speak to the current (or previous) civ penalties, as I am not a civ ripper, I see the possibility of getting overpowered non-combat ships AND draconian civ penalties. That would serve to only make a bad situation worse.

I do not disagree with you that the overall system barely works, and were I in ND's shoes, I would really think about scraping the whole thing and starting over. Barring that...I feel the best solution is to assume a larger population, which will open up alot of options for protection.