[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by WileE

In the exact instance you lay out, the non-fighters would be slaughtered. Now, the question is, would that really happen??? You and I both know the answer is no.

It has happened. QH declared a multitude of civ wars. An entire non-pvp squad (Flying Doctors) was run out of the game by the civving after they were targetted because one of members of Knights Order had a second account in Flying Doctors.

The community? They all fought QH every night in an uber server united OV-Balrog-KO gankfleet. The result? The pvpers pvped, and in their spare time continued civving people.

Was no one else here for this stuff, or are you comfortable ignoring it to keep non-pvp ships defenseless for when you want to rip one?

[WileE]

With a population of 50, you could get something like that coordinated.

On a server of 5000, the likelyhood of this happening is almost zero.

Regardless, IF you were to somehow pull something like this off, you would not be able to do it silently. Whether before or immediately after, the GM's would have to react.

To take things a step further. If ALL the fighters turned on all the non-fighters, turrets or not, the result would likely be the same.

[GrimGriz]

Do you think Rollio was successfully "policed" by the community?

[WileE]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

It has happened, probably while you were GM. QH declared a multitude of civ wars. An entire non-pvp squad (Flying Doctors) was run out of the game by the civving after they were targetted because one of members of Knights Order had a second account in Flying Doctors.

The community? They all fought QH every night in an uber server united OV-Balrog-KO gankfleet. The result? The pvpers pvped, and in their spare time continued civving people.

Was no one else here for this stuff, or are you comfortable ignoring it to keep non-pvp ships defenseless for when you want to rip one?

Nope...I had been replaced before the merge.

Look, I don't debate that it is not easy to balance, especially when things are as wide open and nebulous as it is with Jumpgate (i.e. matter farming is bad, but we are not going to do anything about it, but we are going to fix it because it is an exploit that isn't). That makes it doubly hard.

In that situation, I can tell you that I don't know exactly how I would have reacted to the situation. IMO, the best thing a GM can do is help encourage the natural balance. You can encourage in a direction...while you cannot make them go there, you try. If no one will follow, there isn't much you can do. The players must be participants as well. If there were civing going on to the point that the playerbase is suffering, then you have to step in. Again, I can't say what I would have done in the circumstance. I am confident that I would do more than nothing, however.

I don't do the civing thing. I killed one civ pilot, and felt guilty for about a week. Now, if pushed, I could probibly do it, but it really isn't my thing. If you look at my posts, my concern is not the defensibility of the non-pvp ships, it is upsetting the balance (thin though it may be ATM) that we have. If non-pvp ships all of a sudden become combat ships, then we have the same problem on the other side. You could end up with your dreaded griefers in ships that are unkillable to fighters...then where do you go? Do you look for even more power on your ship? It can become a vicious circle. I am advocating alternative solutions to help extend the survivability of the non-pvp ships without destroying balance.

I believe that a part of that is to have community management that actually manages.

I don't have a problem with, for instance, moving the guns on the tows to a turret that is manually operated. I have a problem with a tow keeping the guns on the front, and picking up turrets as well. I have a problem with non-combat ships carrying high-end combat armament (read: nukes).

I think I said it earlier...in order for this to work, all the ships need to be revisited and rebalanced.

I hope this makes sense. I have a cramp in my back and can't see straight.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by WileE

I think I said it earlier...in order for this to work, all the ships need to be revisited and rebalanced.

If you did, I missed it, because I can completely agree with that.

[WileE]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

Do you think Rollio was successfully "policed" by the community?

This will likely sound like a cop-out, but I cannot answer that. While Rollio did grief, his legend exceeds him. EVERYONE has a Rollio story, about how it somehow hacked the game and killed everyone inside a station that was under level 10 OMGWTFBBQ. You cannot try a man, even postumously, from his legend.

For instance...how many of his kills were in unreg? They do not count IMO. How many were fighters that lost? These things all have to be factored in.

So, I cannot really answer that. I know I saw him in space about 3 times, and he never said boo to me. Back when most of this was going on, I was lost in my first MMO...and didn't even know that things like PJG existed.

[Liet]

One thing I will say... With a server population above 300 (imagine 1000), it will be a huge pain in the ass to self-police. With a small community, you know everyone and you know their reasons for civving someone else. I guarantee with a large population, there's no way I can say "Oh, this home bounty is from Aslan" and expect to be left alone. If someone who doesn't know you sees a bounty, they'll go for it.

[Chemdog]

I can already see Liet in his Pere running off bounties nightly.

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Liet

One thing I will say... With a server population above 300 (imagine 1000), it will be a huge pain in the ass to self-police. With a small community, you know everyone and you know their reasons for civving someone else. I guarantee with a large population, there's no way I can say "Oh, this home bounty is from Aslan" and expect to be left alone. If someone who doesn't know you sees a bounty, they'll go for it.

From a different perspective . . .

The other night, a bountied pirate was flying around in Connex/Stith/DG. I had tuned these sectors, so his bounty was being broadcast to Quants. Three Quants ended up heading (independently) to the area where we chased said pirate into a POS. I left shortly after, but others stayed to harrass the bountied pirate.

If, in a situation where there are 35 or 40 people online, a bounty attracts immediate attention, a situation with 300 or 400 online (or more) will create even MORE response. True, you may want to think twice before taking on a "justified" bounty, but it seems to me that huge numbers will result in very quick and decisive policing action -- the same as they generally did "back in the day."

[TexMurphy]

Ambro... not to argue against you or anything but you have to take into account the fact that on a 35 person server there is a severe lack of things to do... if you have 100 or even 300 then there is soo much to do that its very easy to miss a little bounty...

[Ambrosius]

True . . . part of the deal the other night was that you had three pilots searching for a fight to some degree.

But I remember times in the past few years (back in 150-200 online days) when there was a problem where pirates could not exists because of he immediate server-gank that would occur.

[Liet]

Those *******s had to band together to form Synergy!