Policing Civ rippers

Ambrosius

They should do what is required for the good of the game when the players cannot.

Quote:

I'm really curious to see if any non-pvper believes we successfully policed ourselves in Jumpgate Classic. . .

GG, you posed a question. Why do you keep trying to convert or subvert those who don't align with your view? Wasn't this supposed to be a "poll" to see the diversity of opinion out there?

-Vortex-

Hi everyone!

On the EU server I used to hunt any non accidental bounty I could find to punish people. I started it because I thought it would be fun and I got cived by TDP one time too often, when I was a noob. The bounty hunter and "police" RP provided me with immeasureable fun. I friggin loved it. And I really didn t like the people that cived around, of which we had quite some around on our server, too. I was allways calling for tougher regulations on civkilling in order to make it harder, as there were just too less people going consequently after bounties.
On the EU server self policing failed miserably. There were loads of griefing bans and stupid rules about what was a grief kill and what was allowed etc.. It was not good. I allways called for better ingame rules to avoid this mess, because civkilling DOES drive away people from playing. But solving an ingame problem with out of game rules is a weak solution.
When EU was shut down the system just had been changed but before that sitting of bounty, sector claiming and vouching had made reducing minus pol too easy, while announcing the position of bounties was a step into the right direction. What was a big mistake on the EU server in my opinion was that bounty hunters like me, that flew civ were considered lame cowards by a large number of the players. This was due to constant flaming of the bountied pilots of course but it worked. I do not know a single pilot on the EU server that hunted almost allways civ like me. Nobody dared because you would make yourself a lot of enemies this way. At times I was proud to have more than 90 % of the EU PvP community against me. All while I was doing exactly what the bounty system was meant to make me do (as far as I believe). If you can shoot a bountied pilot while you are civ it is not a fight, but you act as a punisher, a policeman, judge, jury and executioner all in one. That was too much in the opinion of many bountied people, because if you shot the policeman it only got worse. Not that it had ever hindered someone shooting me ;-).
The system is very nice if you ask me. But if noone uses it, it is useless. I would have wished for some dev to state that the bounty system was meant as a punishing system and that civbountyhunting was intended to be happening. That would maybe have encouraged more people to civbountyhunt and make civing more difficult and miserable.
But it didn t happen and there were those stupid griefing rules because the ingame system didn t work.
What I hear from the US Jumpgate Classic bounty system as of now sounds just as bad to me, too. I mean really.. I allways called for tougher ingame civing penalties.. but this is way too harsh.

1. The bounty is too high. This system stinks of possible exploits.
2. A kill is a kill. An unreg noobkill is not too much better than a reg noobkill. Civkills should be counted as normal kills in the stats.
3. Giving such a harsh sentence for a single civkill is too much. A single civkill seldomly was a problem and adds to the freedom in the game. It makes RPs like mine possible... I don t really like the implications, but some danger everywhere really adds to the game. The problem is repeated civkilling. The second civkill, while you are already bountied should be punished a lot harder than the first.
4. The amount of money people loose is too high, I d guess it is in no relation to the damage done unless really expensive uninsured cargo was involved.

I would therefore use the following system and state that civbountyhunting is the way to hunt bounties.

1. Your first civrip lands you a -60 victim faction pol, which you have to work of normally with missions 3 pol each and beacons. No sector claiming, no station sitting, no vouching. All TRI factions consider you a criminal and don t repair, refuel or trade with you. You are not insured. There are two 3 ships each police patrols that patrol in each faction that might meet you on their random but consistent trip through their factions space. They won t be fast enough to catch and destroy you most likely (~ v470), but you have difficulties to dock and they will follow you to the borders of their faction or to a station you dock on. If you dock they will stay there for a random time between 30 and 60 minutes, but not less, even if you log out.
If you meet police ships or enter a station sector your bounty will be announced on KTRI.
One could restrict this system to the victims faction if realtions between the TRI factions have cooled down by some RP for example.
2. If you already have got a bounty, a civrip will land you an additional -60 pol. Bringing you to some point between -61 and -125.
Below -60 all of the above rules apply, but one patrol will systematically search for you once you enter a station sector. It will allways head to your last known location wait there if it doesn t see you for 5 minutes before going back to normal duty.
Below -100 all of the above rules apply and both patrols will come for you.
3. At -125 (for those artied continuously civripping bastards) a dock on any TRI station will strip you of everything you have in your ship and you will get noobequip without reimbursement but you will gain one point pol. This only applies if You do not already have noobequip. The TRI-station next to you will launch an v800+ Enforcer and it will hunt you. It will know your exact position and vector anywhere in space in 50k around TRI objects (beacons, stations etc. ). If it looses you in deepspace or on a station it will circle your last position and wait for 12 to 24 hours. BEing killed by the Enforcer will gain you 1 point pol.

I think something like this should be enough if there are at least some people hunting. They will get police help making fights easier and loosing an unisured ship should be expensive enough. In the end it is just about finetuning the regulations and a sledgehammer like the current system should be unnecessary.

daslog

I'm a PvPer (I flew with Synergy, DSA, etc) I'll answer his Griz's question:

HELL NO!! But that's not the point. Some people just want the freedom to rip civs. Netdevil has to decide if that's who they want for their target audience.

-Vortex-

/Edit: I forgot the get killed +pol. At -100 or higher you gain 25 pol for being killed.

Tim

Quote:

Originally Posted by daslog

...But that's not the point. Some people just want the freedom to rip civs. Netdevil has to decide if that's who they want for their target audience.

There's the bottom line, right there. Well said, Daslog.

Liet

Don't forget, one faction's criminal civ ripper can be another's patriotic Hero of the Empire.

Assigning PR penalties across all factions is nonsensical.

GrimGriz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

GG, you posed a question. Why do you keep trying to convert or subvert those who don't align with your view? Wasn't this supposed to be a "poll" to see the diversity of opinion out there?

It "evolved". I love a good debate, and I really don't want to see artificial safe zones. I personally believe that if miners and haulers don't get redesigned, safe zones are definitely going to be a reality, so I try to get people to support the redesigning of miners and haulers.

To be completely honest, I wouldn't be surprised if ND had already decided on a civ-chip type solution, and is just holding that info back so that our speculations remain positive.

Pyrophred

Quote:

Originally Posted by daslog

Some people just want the freedom to rip civs. Netdevil has to decide if that's who they want for their target audience.

people like this need to be dealt with, and those of us that cant defend ourselves in space need to have some way to deal with them as well. perhaps there can be some provision for player based ban polls or something?

dailatron

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrophred

perhaps there can be some provision for player based ban polls or something?

There had better not be. OV wouldnt have lasted two months on the "WWS" if that had been the case. There needs to be ingame mechanics in place to deal with civ rippers. What that would be I dont know, but self policing doesnt work 24/7 and it never will.

Oh BTW, yes I have civ ripped but not much and those that did get ripped by me either deserved (IC) or asked (OOC) for it.

That said, there is a place for civ ripping IC. So I say NO to civs having immunity.

QrazyKermi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrophred

...perhaps there can be some provision for player based ban polls or something?

Something like that was tried before with a player run court system. Judge Judy Jumpgate was an interesting showcase of linguistic abilities... but a failure beyond that.

Liet

Ladies and Gentlemen, children of all ages! I direct your attention to the third ring, where 9 elephants are stacked into a pyramid, and at the top... a freakish travesty!

Jumpgate Forums - When was it decided that CCJ rulings can affect player accounts?

GrimGriz

This reminds me another time WileE and I had disagreed about ships. My case was that the harmattan was ridiculous with size 2 engines. It's nice looking back on things like that

*edit*

Quote:

Meanwhile, your whining is more general discussion as it has nothing to do with plot, please take it there, kthnxbye.

Look how fiesty I USED to be

TRI Pilots On Duty
On Duty:	18
In Flight:	11
Solrain:	1
Octavius:	7
Quantar:	10
TRI:	0

Category	Pilot	Score
Kills	Algore	2,742
Kill Ratio*	_KROM_	470.000 %
Bounty Collected	Killntime	407,838,097
Munitions Accuracy*	Psycho	85.915 %
Projectile Accuracy*	BADDAL	100 %
Total Conflux Kills	vorlon31	148,583
Experience	CaptainCow	100,000,000
Mission Success Ratio*	Arkady	100 %
Insurance Rating*	Knork	10 %
Net Worth	McPlowed	c22,489,501,046
Duty Hours	RedDwarf	16,903.0
*minimum requirements to qualify


	-Vortex- Recruit Pilot Name: -Vortex- Joystick: MS Sidewinder Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 21	Re: Policing Civ rippers Hi everyone! On the EU server I used to hunt any non accidental bounty I could find to punish people. I started it because I thought it would be fun and I got cived by TDP one time too often, when I was a noob. The bounty hunter and "police" RP provided me with immeasureable fun. I friggin loved it. And I really didn t like the people that cived around, of which we had quite some around on our server, too. I was allways calling for tougher regulations on civkilling in order to make it harder, as there were just too less people going consequently after bounties. On the EU server self policing failed miserably. There were loads of griefing bans and stupid rules about what was a grief kill and what was allowed etc.. It was not good. I allways called for better ingame rules to avoid this mess, because civkilling DOES drive away people from playing. But solving an ingame problem with out of game rules is a weak solution. When EU was shut down the system just had been changed but before that sitting of bounty, sector claiming and vouching had made reducing minus pol too easy, while announcing the position of bounties was a step into the right direction. What was a big mistake on the EU server in my opinion was that bounty hunters like me, that flew civ were considered lame cowards by a large number of the players. This was due to constant flaming of the bountied pilots of course but it worked. I do not know a single pilot on the EU server that hunted almost allways civ like me. Nobody dared because you would make yourself a lot of enemies this way. At times I was proud to have more than 90 % of the EU PvP community against me. All while I was doing exactly what the bounty system was meant to make me do (as far as I believe). If you can shoot a bountied pilot while you are civ it is not a fight, but you act as a punisher, a policeman, judge, jury and executioner all in one. That was too much in the opinion of many bountied people, because if you shot the policeman it only got worse. Not that it had ever hindered someone shooting me ;-). The system is very nice if you ask me. But if noone uses it, it is useless. I would have wished for some dev to state that the bounty system was meant as a punishing system and that civbountyhunting was intended to be happening. That would maybe have encouraged more people to civbountyhunt and make civing more difficult and miserable. But it didn t happen and there were those stupid griefing rules because the ingame system didn t work. What I hear from the US Jumpgate Classic bounty system as of now sounds just as bad to me, too. I mean really.. I allways called for tougher ingame civing penalties.. but this is way too harsh. 1. The bounty is too high. This system stinks of possible exploits. 2. A kill is a kill. An unreg noobkill is not too much better than a reg noobkill. Civkills should be counted as normal kills in the stats. 3. Giving such a harsh sentence for a single civkill is too much. A single civkill seldomly was a problem and adds to the freedom in the game. It makes RPs like mine possible... I don t really like the implications, but some danger everywhere really adds to the game. The problem is repeated civkilling. The second civkill, while you are already bountied should be punished a lot harder than the first. 4. The amount of money people loose is too high, I d guess it is in no relation to the damage done unless really expensive uninsured cargo was involved. I would therefore use the following system and state that civbountyhunting is the way to hunt bounties. 1. Your first civrip lands you a -60 victim faction pol, which you have to work of normally with missions 3 pol each and beacons. No sector claiming, no station sitting, no vouching. All TRI factions consider you a criminal and don t repair, refuel or trade with you. You are not insured. There are two 3 ships each police patrols that patrol in each faction that might meet you on their random but consistent trip through their factions space. They won t be fast enough to catch and destroy you most likely (~ v470), but you have difficulties to dock and they will follow you to the borders of their faction or to a station you dock on. If you dock they will stay there for a random time between 30 and 60 minutes, but not less, even if you log out. If you meet police ships or enter a station sector your bounty will be announced on KTRI. One could restrict this system to the victims faction if realtions between the TRI factions have cooled down by some RP for example. 2. If you already have got a bounty, a civrip will land you an additional -60 pol. Bringing you to some point between -61 and -125. Below -60 all of the above rules apply, but one patrol will systematically search for you once you enter a station sector. It will allways head to your last known location wait there if it doesn t see you for 5 minutes before going back to normal duty. Below -100 all of the above rules apply and both patrols will come for you. 3. At -125 (for those artied continuously civripping bastards) a dock on any TRI station will strip you of everything you have in your ship and you will get noobequip without reimbursement but you will gain one point pol. This only applies if You do not already have noobequip. The TRI-station next to you will launch an v800+ Enforcer and it will hunt you. It will know your exact position and vector anywhere in space in 50k around TRI objects (beacons, stations etc. ). If it looses you in deepspace or on a station it will circle your last position and wait for 12 to 24 hours. BEing killed by the Enforcer will gain you 1 point pol. I think something like this should be enough if there are at least some people hunting. They will get police help making fights easier and loosing an unisured ship should be expensive enough. In the end it is just about finetuning the regulations and a sledgehammer like the current system should be unnecessary.
		__________________ THIS IS A PIRATEHUNT! CUT UR ENGINES AND AWAIT PUNISHMENT!


	daslog Member Pilot Name: daslog Joystick: sidewinder Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: new hampshire uber alles Posts: 329	Re: Policing Civ rippers I'm a PvPer (I flew with Synergy, DSA, etc) I'll answer his Griz's question: HELL NO!! But that's not the point. Some people just want the freedom to rip civs. Netdevil has to decide if that's who they want for their target audience.


	-Vortex- Recruit Pilot Name: -Vortex- Joystick: MS Sidewinder Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 21	Re: Policing Civ rippers /Edit: I forgot the get killed +pol. At -100 or higher you gain 25 pol for being killed.


	Liet Member Pilot Name: Liet Joystick: Force Feedback2 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 253	Re: Policing Civ rippers Don't forget, one faction's criminal civ ripper can be another's patriotic Hero of the Empire. Assigning PR penalties across all factions is nonsensical.


	Liet Member Pilot Name: Liet Joystick: Force Feedback2 Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 253	Re: Policing Civ rippers Ladies and Gentlemen, children of all ages! I direct your attention to the third ring, where 9 elephants are stacked into a pyramid, and at the top... a freakish travesty! Jumpgate Forums - When was it decided that CCJ rulings can affect player accounts?