[Larommi]

Now that I think about it. Docking tubes and launch tubes should be able to take short time damage or not allow certain tags to land.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

However, that still makes the pvp playerbase superior to non-pvpers. They can decide if help is going to arrive or not. Other non-pvpers can't really come to the aid of their friend.

Before you said you wanted ships to have the ability to survive until help arrived. A significant armor increase would allow this, but now you say that it is a problem because PvP ships would be superior to non-PvP ships. I hate to break it to you GG, but that is how it should be. It doesn't make sense for a freighter to take out a fighter. Then you have a problem with overpowered PvE ships.

It's obvious to me that you wont be happy until you get your PvE gunboats but that is not what this game needs. This game needs haulers and PvPers to work together. Like Tex said we should encourage the playerbase to work together, not seperately from one another. This is an MMOG you should not be able to do everything on your own. If you want to play alone go play a single player game. There are plenty of them out there.

[GrimGriz]

LOL, a glimpse of the attitude already. My way or find a different game....now where I have heard THAT before? I'm pretty sure I've said it elsewhere, the only way a miner or hauler should take out a fighter is if the fighter is stupid.

I've seen tons of posts saying remove the tag system, but apparently it's better to keep it and make half the players victims. Since you like siding with Tex: Like Tex said, making haulers and miners able to defend themselves would put a giant target on them.....that, ofcourse, would encourage them to have a good friendship with fighter pilots.

At this point, I'm just going to see if Netdevil makes the same mistake twice. There is a good chance they will, and that they'll try to fix it with safezones.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

LOL, a glimpse of the attitude already. My way or find a different game....now where I have heard THAT before? I'm pretty sure I've said it elsewhere, the only way a miner or hauler should take out a fighter is if the fighter is stupid.

So then what's the point of giving them guns at all other than for flux defense if it's going to be just as easy for a fighter to take out a miner/hauler. Or do you mean it should end in a stalemate and the only reason that the hauler/miner can't kill the fighter is because the fighter would be faster? I fail to see how that's a very good system. Mining ships and hauling ships should not be capable of doing everything.

I've seen tons of posts saying remove the tag system, but apparently it's better to keep it and make half the players victims.

I don't see how the tag system has any relevance to putting guns on mining/hauling ships.

Since you like siding with Tex: Like Tex said, making haulers and miners able to defend themselves would put a giant target on them.....that, ofcourse, would encourage them to have a good friendship with fighter pilots.

Or fighter pilots would say, "they can defend themselves since they have turrets, let's go do our own thing," and we'd be exactly where we are.

At this point, I'm just going to see if Netdevil makes the same mistake twice. There is a good chance they will, and that they'll try to fix it with safezones.

If you seriously believe that they will implement safe zones then you should lay off the drugs. That doesn't seem likely in the least.

[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

If you seriously believe that they will implement safe zones then you should lay off the drugs. That doesn't seem likely in the least.

If you think that they aren't in some form, then I say the same thing to you.

Netdevil are going to want to make Jumpgate Evolution popular, they want players, bums on seats and all that.

They are going to want to do more than entertain just the players they have now and those they have had in the past.

They will want NEW players too and numbers. And those numbers will mean compromise in 'some' areas of the gameplay as you or I would like it, I'm sure - or a huge enough galaxy so that all can exist at once.

[Pyrophred]

Originally Posted by Shual

As far as noob-griefing goes, I suggest creating a semi-safe zone in all factional station sectors. Small wings of AI faction military would patrol these sectors, automatically attacking any bountied foreign pilots. The AI ships wouldn't be any more powerful than player ships, so a skilled pilot could still fight them off, but hopefully a few players would join in the defense as well.

If a non-bountied pilot opens fire on a civ in a station sector and manages to armor them (or get them below 50% shields or whatever the cutoff is), the AI military will attempt to temporarily disable the aggressor and toss it through the gate. If the victim is killed or the aggressor fights back against the AI, they'll shoot to kill.

Of course, if you're not in a station sector, your only protections will be the usual civkill penalties and whatever you bring with you. Don't want the rookies getting the idea that space is safe, now do we?

I might add to this that if you are bountied, you are kos to the station police. make it so unreg is the only place you can easily dock

[Wild_Bill]

One thing I've noticed over the years and my numerous pod rides. I was unhappy when the flux got me, but I was usually angry when I was civ and got ripped by another pilot. I say this simply because if I got ripped by the flux, it was because I wasn't paying attention or I had knowingly entered a place that was dangerous to me. Most of the civ rips I've gotten through the years were in places I felt I was, if not safe then at least of lessened danger. Like Core Sector space (3 rips) and regulated faction space (12 rips). There have been only a few in unreg space, relatively speaking, because I KNEW unreg was dangerous. And for the record, the vast majority of my pod rides were because of pilot error to one degree or another. I think I've splashed in about every way there is in this game at one time or another.

The other thing is when an AI downs you, there's nothing and no one to get angry with but yourself. When it's another human being who does the deed to you, it take on an entirely personal flavor that a lot of us simply don't like. I think it may be that way with PvPers as well, but in reverse. The fluxers enjoy downing the AI opponent. The griefer prefers a real live victim to rip and the PvPers want a live opponent to make the fight more "real".

I dont' think Brother Grim's idea of survivable ships is realistic without some kind of zones of increased safety; AI police response or alternately, patrol/escort missions for the MT or whatever it's called in the new game. Enough armor to survive a two or three sector retreat while loaded will just hurt the stats on ships that already suck at manueverability. Even if the turrets make it in to the game, they are not likely to mount anything REALLY damaging (bet they won't be able to mount Shards, Spits or Flails) or be all that effective in use, (even if they got LF manueverability on the turrets, they will only cover so much area and you would have to switch back and forth to a different turret to get complete coverage or else leave the gunning to AI).

I'm curious as to what ND comes up with. I personally prefer differential levels of patrols (AI or missions) based on distance from core planets or important sectors (covered elsewhere). I wouldn't mind the concept of "forts" in the sense of the frontier forts of the American West during the Indian Wars with squadrons of AI police. The fort/outpost would be in either every other sector or every third sector in claimed territory. At worst, help wouldn't have to come more than a few sectors away at fighter speeds. Making a tow/tug/HM able to survive THAT long would be acceptible, either by shield, armor or both.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

So then what's the point of giving them guns at all other than for flux defense if it's going to be just as easy for a fighter to take out a miner/hauler. Or do you mean it should end in a stalemate and the only reason that the hauler/miner can't kill the fighter is because the fighter would be faster? I fail to see how that's a very good system. Mining ships and hauling ships should not be capable of doing everything.

Either the fighter would win, or the fighter would run. Unless he was a really bad pilot. Really bad fighter pilots could die to a skilled turret aim.

I don't see how the tag system has any relevance to putting guns on mining/hauling ships.

Right now civilians are "protected" by the tag system. Give them the means to protect themselves, and you have no need for tag system protection.

Or fighter pilots would say, "they can defend themselves since they have turrets, let's go do our own thing," and we'd be exactly where we are.

Except that it 3 friends were mining in HMs now, a single fighter/pirate/greifer could probably take at least 2 of them out. If they had turrets, he'd have to be damn good/lucky to get 1 of them.

If you seriously believe that they will implement safe zones then you should lay off the drugs. That doesn't seem likely in the least.

Safe zones or super uber AI. They want to keep the players the pvp crowd loves to tell "find another game" this time around.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

(even if they got LF manueverability on the turrets, they will only cover so much area and you would have to switch back and forth to a different turret to get complete coverage or else leave the gunning to AI).
.

I was thinking this could be handled by allowing you to roll your ship while in the turret, but I'd have to actually try to operate one to know for sure if that would work or not.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

Right now civilians are "protected" by the tag system. Give them the means to protect themselves, and you have no need for tag system protection.

Get an escort.

Except that it 3 friends were mining in HMs now, a single fighter/pirate/greifer could probably take at least 2 of them out. If they had turrets, he'd have to be damn good/lucky to get 1 of them.

Get an escort.

Safe zones or super uber AI. They want to keep the players the pvp crowd loves to tell "find another game" this time around.

Get an escort.



All these problems are solved by getting escorts. Tonight I flew Pirate tags hauling for a couple hours. I had an escort the entire night just in case something were to happen. It's not a difficult concept and I don't understand why the PvE crowd is so anti-escort.

[daslog]

The escort problem has already been explained to you numerous times. You just "refuse to acknowledge" the explanation.