[GrimGriz]

Forgive me if I miss a side, but I see the following 'camps':

We policed ourselves - Those that believe ripping the fighter of a civ ripper amounted to some kind of justice to the miner pilot who got civved while being virtually defenseless.

We need safezones/AI policing - Those that believe civ ripping will run tons of players out of the game unless something 'artificial' protects players in certain parts of space.

Sheep with teeth - People that share my belief that non-pvp ships should be able to fight back, run away, or survive until help arrives from 2-4 sectors away.

Did any miss anybody?

I'm really curious to see if any non-pvper believes we successfully policed ourselves in Jumpgate Classic, and I tried to make a poll but apparently it took me more than 2 minutes to make it....

[Dedsquirrl]

The only problem I see with "Sheep with Teeth" option is,

If a miner/trucker is so well defended that even a combat loadout has trouble ripping him, where is he going to find any danger.

He definately won't have any trouble with Flux that come after him.

His only worry would be mis-judging his circle and slapping himself against the roid.

It is definately a tough problem to solve.

But I am more in line with making it more difficult for the civ-ripper by adding a weak AI to help out in Friendly Space (like the Station Defense Droids that attacked bountied pilots) and maybe notifications when bountied pilots entered space that was beacon controlled by the faction placing the bounty.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Dedsquirrl

The only problem I see with "Sheep with Teeth" option is,

If a miner/trucker is so well defended that even a combat loadout has trouble ripping him, where is he going to find any danger.

2 combat loadouts. 2 conflux menaces. Well timed missling or poorly timed PWDing. I'm not pushing for a fighter saying "oh crap, a HM" just that the combat pilot has to be better than HM pilot, instead of seeing him and getting a free kill.

[Raz]

Now that insurance can cover cargo (at 75% ship insurance, Istvan you're a damn genius), I don't see the problem with civ ripping?

The penalty is no longer 'You Lose 300 Instigators, Good Day Sir'.

Don't be scared of negative things happening to players, guys. Just make sure that the game is set up to reward those who punish the wicked, and that player who got popped just might have a renewed zeal for a new profession :P

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Raz

... that player who got popped just might have a renewed zeal for a new profession :P

Ah yes.. because lord knows enjoying the one he was doing certainly wasn't good enough. All pvp, all the time. What else is jumpgate good for, right?

[Milkman]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

Forgive me if I miss a side, but I see the following 'camps':

We policed ourselves - Those that believe ripping the fighter of a civ ripper amounted to some kind of justice to the miner pilot who got civved while being virtually defenseless.

We need safezones/AI policing - Those that believe civ ripping will run tons of players out of the game unless something 'artificial' protects players in certain parts of space.

Sheep with teeth - People that share my belief that non-pvp ships should be able to fight back, run away, or survive until help arrives from 2-4 sectors away.

Did any miss anybody?

I'm really curious to see if any non-pvper believes we successfully policed ourselves in Jumpgate Classic, and I tried to make a poll but apparently it took me more than 2 minutes to make it....

I would be a mostly non-pvper in Jumpgate Classic. I participated in multiple PvP engagements, but have only racked up 1 kill so far and that was a bountied civ ripper. :P I like the idea if being able to last longer in a hauling type of ship... and don't mind the idea of AI protectors in newbe sectors.

Back in the rollio days, i died a fair number of times to him... or at least got majorly shotup. BUT that just added the sense of danger to it. I would then squad up, if not already squadded up, and try to catch him. Very seldomly did we do so, but we had a blast trying. I think when the server population was high... self policing does work. When population is low... it doesn't work. This also assumes that the majority of online players are decent players willing to help those in need.

I think overall.. we need alittle mix of everything to keep everyone happy. The world needs to be dangerous and at the same time friendly enough to keep players who are just starting out.

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

I'm really curious to see if any non-pvper believes we successfully policed ourselves in Jumpgate Classic, and I tried to make a poll but apparently it took me more than 2 minutes to make it....

Hummm, do I count as a non-pvper. I'm not sure....

I will say that the self policing of the community used to be fairly good. The game machanics did not offer "safe area's" but the squads that you joined did. I would dare say that anyone attacking New Dawn, -=MACK=-, -=GOD=- and a few other peaceful squads were made aware of thier mistake in a quick fashion.

When pilots saw "A bounty has been placed on Liet in Quantar Core" the asumption was that some civ was joining the battle and didn't dare to put on HG tags. Mass fleet of "kill the civ ripper" didn't emerge and hunt Liet to the point that he was pinned in a station and unable to fly for hours.

When polits saw "A bounty has been placed on Rollio in Quantar Core" it would not be long be Rollio would be docking and logging off for a few hours. I can't count how many times a civ ripper would long on and the community would cordinate together to ensure that pilot was not in flight for very long.

I have always had the impression that there is honor amount enimies in Jumpgate, as I have seen differences put aside so that some lamer could be persuaded that his actions were not apreaciate by ANYONE in the community. Unreg wasn't even a safe place for those that ventured into regulated space to kill some unspecting miner that has never shot a another pilot before.

Self policing was never perfect, but still it left the game in a state where you had freedom to do anything, anywhere, anytime. But you had to be willing to suffer the consequences of your actions. "Safe area's" would also not be a perfect solution, but would take away from the freedom that jumpgate as always offered.

IMHO there can not be a perfect solution for civ rippers, but the current mechanic make it possible for lots of fun in the game. The more freedoms to do anything that you take out of Jumpgate, the more possiblities for fun you remove with it.

[GrimGriz]

First of all, I fail to see how allowing non-pvp ships to defend/run/survive a single attacker removes ANY freedom from anyone.

Since you're here hurricane, can you clear up what happened for me? The way I remember things (which is notoriously fuzzy) is that when the pirate tools decided to come out Synergy decided to play pirate. However, instead of using the pirate tools without civving anyone, they did StopAndLetMePirateYou or Die instead of Pay or Die. Then they decided to pick on MACK and New Dawn (coz really, there weren't very many other squads left to pick on).

As i recall it, I was fairly excited at the time because it seemed like an opportunity for escorting to finally have a purpose and be worthwhile. However, instead of turning to escorts it seemed that MACK jumped into fighters and tried to take on veteran pvpers. The next thing I know, most of the MACK people seemed to be trying other games.

Is that how it went down?
What effect would freighter turrets have had on that situation?

[Liet]

I guess you would have preferred we flew along in Rangers, leeching cargo like mosquitos? That's not piracy, that's parasitism.

I never liked the pirate tools anyway. I do remember before Ep2 came out we were thrilled at the idea of a self-sustaining commuity using nothing TRI-produced and living only off stolen commods. That didn't happen, though. Oh well.

[Hurricane]

I'm not sure where I said allowing non-pvp ships to defend/run/survive a single attack would remove freedoms, but I'm sure I said that creating a "safe area" where no PVP is allowed would. I remember when the TOW was basically the only ship I flew, and I felt I could defend myself against the single PvP pilot, or had the speed to escape if I decided to. As a hauling squad of TOW drivers we would spend a few times a in dark crossroads killing flux while f3'ing the whole time that we didn't want anyone pulling the flux off us. Decressing the TOW speed did more harm to non-pvp hauler than most can possibly realize, even if it was more realistic that bigger ships go slower, as it did take away the ships ability to defend/run/survive.

My memories are notoriously fuzzy as well, but I do remember Synergy pirating us near the end were everywhere and full of equipment. Haulers were not needed to stock faction station so much, so our choice was to fight back and mix things up rather than run more of the same old best profit runs. Synergy didn't drive out the haulers, and although they were pirating us, they were not descrimanately civ ripping everything in sight.

There would have been more hiring of escorts I believe if stations needed stocking, but most everyone had thier equipment and would do thier own stocking in second accounts when it was quiet and there were no "bad guys" running around the space lanes.

Freighter turrets in the Synergy situation would have made it so those that absolutely didn't want to be involved in the "Synergy must die" fleet could have risked more best profit runs under the comfort of knowing that maybe they would have survived a single pilot confrontaion rather than those said pilots spending more time out arty hunting where no one could find them.

[Dedsquirrl]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

First of all, I fail to see how allowing non-pvp ships to defend/run/survive a single attacker removes ANY freedom from anyone.

Since you're here hurricane, can you clear up what happened for me? The way I remember things (which is notoriously fuzzy) is that when the pirate tools decided to come out Synergy decided to play pirate. However, instead of using the pirate tools without civving anyone, they did StopAndLetMePirateYou or Die instead of Pay or Die. Then they decided to pick on MACK and New Dawn (coz really, there weren't very many other squads left to pick on).

As i recall it, I was fairly excited at the time because it seemed like an opportunity for escorting to finally have a purpose and be worthwhile. However, instead of turning to escorts it seemed that MACK jumped into fighters and tried to take on veteran pvpers. The next thing I know, most of the MACK people seemed to be trying other games.

Is that how it went down?
What effect would freighter turrets have had on that situation?

By the time they added Pirate tools, many pilots had already left.
Pirate tools were too little too late.

Heck, that scenario is the kind of thing that would have made me crack open a 2 liter of Dr. Pepper, strap on a man diaper, and sit at my computer all night following around MACK tows.

Civ miners should have severe combat issues.
Just like fighters aren't good for anything besides making stuff go boom.