[vorlon31]

The thing is, while pilot x can decide at will to abuse the tags system either way, or at least bend it for his own kicks at the expense of other players freedoms, you will have a divide in the player base.

Seeing as that divide WILL exist, ND can be clever and use it, keeping players playing and reaping the revenue using split server styles to suit as many players as possible, or ignore it and repeat history with no 3do or themis to point the finger at.

So often I read 'but we need to civ' and 'there are times that it is necessary' and yet in both of those arguments I see a manipulation of the truth and that truth is that the civ needing civ'ing is a pvp player out of normal tags or a true civ reacting to a situation created by a pvp pilot.

If a pvp server cannot exist without pve players, then accept "no shooty shooty civilians in reg" or exist on pvp server that has chaos at its heart and no realism at all.

[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Algore

I'm not a fan of safe zones, but not knowing what level of protection a safe zone would give makes me want to reserve judgement for fear of looking foolish at a later date. There hasn't really been enough information released for me to have a definitive opinion.
That being said I've always seen carebears as future recruits. All the current OV came from squads I would have considered to be more soft centered than hard centered
As there have been less trading squads in Jumpgate I have noticed a clear difference in recruiting. People join a busy squad, they either like it or move on. From a PvP pov I tended to recruited bored traders/fluxers who wanted to try PvP. Honest, non polluted PvP noobs. A blank canvas if you will.
The apparent lack of protection, by game mechanics or player governed for these groups has reduced the number of trading squads. This directly reduced the pool of possible new pilots to PvP. I'm not saying make any area of space totally safe, but if retaining them with some sort of greater levels of safety means we avoid the current bastardisation of squads made from 2nd accounts this may be a bonus.
I guess there is an angle for every opinion in Jumpgate. But if retaining players creates more PvP. Or more importantly more people continue long enough to try it before leaving due to lack of protection, then surely this is something we must consider.

Regards
Al

Oft, I think this man is a damned Genius!

[Jetset]

As long as noobs are not set upon, and kills are RP I cant see a problem. Hopefully they'll be enough players to get escorts with those expensive cargo holds.

[GrimGriz]

People that don't want to fight need a way for that to happen. My personal preference for that is to give everyone a the ability to fight. Kind of like an arms race. You don't wanna throw a nuke at them because they've got one to throw back at you.

Another method is safe zones. Another method is the tag system. It might be early enough to convince them to change the method they're going to use, but I'm fairly sure beta will be too late to do so.

[ELPIRATA]

he's getting on my nerves...

Go, run, follow Lordo's suggestion...

Breath in... breath out, breath innnn, breath ouuut..

ufff, I feel better

ELP

[netburnr]

Originally Posted by vorlon31

So often I read 'but we need to civ' and 'there are times that it is necessary' and yet in both of those arguments I see a manipulation of the truth and that truth is that the civ needing civ'ing is a pvp player out of normal tags or a true civ reacting to a situation created by a pvp pilot.

Thats only part of the picture.

Imagine, I'm in the PvP server, crashing equipment to stop the PvPers from having their way. I am able to launch, crash, relaunch crash, faster than any amount of AI is able to keep up.

Now the fighters are out of equipment and pissed of at me.

Oh well, I'll just go to the safe zone and talk crap to them because there is literally nothing they can do about it due to the game mechanics.

And thats just a simple one, people will find many many many more ways to abuse any sort of "protection" put in place.

Without consequences for your actions, there is no real downside to being a blimpblimp.

[ELPIRATA]

To me, real inmunity as described by Net.. can't be considered. The equipment splasher is the best example, destroy commods while within the safe zone, being inmune to folks looking for retribution... is a big no no.

Another situation is what happened to me while I was setting Core and GP to produce specific items so that Octavian production could resume. Many times during that period the work I had been doing (at a loss btw) was being sabotaged by profit runners (who also didnt speak english, making deal with them even harder).

If they are inmune to attacks, how can we make them understand the effects of their actions? If they dont leave Reg space (aka safe zone) they wont have a thing to worry, whereas now, I just switch to a Nix and wait for them to go outside and start pouring some ammo/lasers into them. Eventually, I had to ask for help because if I had to kill them... (which I would love to).. I would lose all my PR and hence sabotaging production myself. The Firm and OV helped a great deal with this, and purge's announcement was really something that if you wanted to not be killed by your own factional pilots you really had to pay attention.

With total inmunity these kinds of pilots can do as they wish and nobody (aside of a GM) will stop them, and I can bet again your coffee (lol) that a PvE wont do a thing about it either (well, except probably for McP and a few others).

Now, I understand that this may be being done to protect others, perhaps the new folks from threats like pilots who just wait for low levels to kill them when they launch for the first time (the same as they do with miners and heavy haulers who can't really defend themselves).

Also, as Awen said in another thread, nothing is set in stone/steel yet, so tinkering may end up producing a better system, a middle ground, but guns need to work to be able to fight these 2 types of carebears ruining the others experience.

I loved Istvan's aproach on the noob shields in Jumpgate Classic, to protect the new folks I would hope for either even better shields for them or a godlike mode that lasts for 15-45 mins, enough so that they can learn the ropes and not be frustrated with a no-good-stat-padder who feels he's superior just because he has big guns. ATM, if you're a noob and you either decide to go MT right away OR shoot on somebody.. the noob protection is gone.

Combine either of these ideas and add the AI/Player patrols, add some turrets that can track hostiles to deterr bad apples (BTW in oct space, lots of turrets, people should fear entering our station sector) from ruining the experience of new people, but at the same time, we can't fully protect civs due to the inherent problems described earlier.

ELP

[Qatryk]

NO

[vorlon31]

If profitable runs terminated AT production areas.

If pos production existed with commodity storage facilities incorporated into the prod modules, separate to the common markets at each location and that in turn were protected by production licences.

If splashed ships cargo were recoverable by AI cargo recovery ships working for the insurance firms...

Would any of those scenarios still matter?

[SlimPickns]

Originally Posted by vorlon31

If profitable runs terminated AT production areas.

Not sure what that means.

If pos production existed with commodity storage facilities incorporated into the prod modules, separate to the common markets at each location and that in turn were protected by production licences.

nice for a monopoly, what happens when the peeps with the licences go awol. Is there a production quota that has to be met to keep the licence?

If splashed ships cargo were recoverable by AI cargo recovery ships working for the insurance firms...

I guess, i like cargo to go poof, but what do i know.

Would any of those scenarios still matter?

Splasing is usuly done as a protest,, its stupid to splash anything. Nothing in the current game is non replaceable. Just a inconvience.

Personaly i would like a pvp tag. That has a seperate market then the pvers. It does not have to be large, just critical things that pvpers need. I would also like a permenate pvp tag. One that the player chooses when he starts.

Let the pvpers have whatever they like. Interaction between the two does not have to cross lines. Theres probably going to be different coms so even talking to one might not be possable.

Unreg could be a viable risk for some pvers if the unreg stations had working markets. Some rare thing they needed to make some gadget. I am assuming unreg is unreg.. hehe. So they can still experience danger there, with payoffs to match the risk.

[SlimPickns]

Originally Posted by SlimPickns

Let the pvpers have whatever they like. Interaction between the two does not have to cross lines. Theres probably going to be different coms so even talking to one might not be possable.

I am sorry that should read Let the pvers have whatever they like.