[Tobyus]

The thing I have against the different "damage types" and "shield types" is that it doesn't mean you are Wise or Skilled if you happen to equip the right damage type to do the most damage to your enemy's shields. It means you got lucky. If there are many types of resistances and corresponding damage types, it will just add another unnecessary variable to cause frustration on both ends. The victim will be frustrated when he gets killed quicker than he should have because he chose the wrong type of resistance shields, and the killer would be equally frustrated if he chose the wrong type of damage for his target and died because he couldn't damage his target quicker than it damaged him.

For this to even have a chance of working, every resistance type would have to have some pros and cons, and the same thing would have to go for the weapons. Also, these resistance types would have to have some way of being detected by your attacker. Maybe you glow green if you are resistant to radiation, but because you are resistant to radiation, normal ammunition will do extra damage to you and you have a slower maximum speed. If your shields glow red, you are resistant to heat damage, but you are susceptible to cold damage, but your shields use more energy, leaving your weapons thirsty. Etc.

[Ratneck]

<Edit>I'm referring to average or new pilots, not old salty dogs with so many hours they can rip you in whatever they fly</Edit>

I suppose I got off of my original point by mentioning a mechanic in another game. Shields and weapons and damage type, I'm not overly concerned about that stuff. I was simply making a point of having a use for the smaller and faster fighters so that it wasn't simply "Ding! I now fly the heavy fighter instead of the medium fighter".

I used that as an example to show that perhaps there would be a way to keep them more useful. Sure, in 1 v 1 someone in a heavy fighter will most likely defeat someone in a light fighter...not due to skill but due to character level and equipment availability. But give people a reason to use that light fighter.

The current (Jumpgate Classic) ships simply beef EVERYTHING up when you move up a fighter level. You get bigger guns. More Guns. Bigger Shields. More Armor. The only reason I can think of to stick with a "lighter" fighter is for maneuverability or speed. The speed difference isn't enough to get away from the guns of the heavy ship if the pilot has moderately good aim.

Maybe bump the top speed of the smaller craft, give them guns that are more effective against larger fighters, do something to make them useful for the average person beyond the point that they level into the next ship. If they don't, 3 months in you'll just see 1 or 2 types of each ship flying about, and all the work they put into the smaller vessels will go to waste.

I am open to hearing ideas on uses for the different fighter ships. For example, if there's one that would be best for pirating and such it would be great, I'm just worried they're going to follow the "Ding! Time for a new ship" pattern of most non-skill based mmo's.

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Ratneck

. . . I used that as an example to show that perhaps there would be a way to keep them more useful. Sure, in 1 v 1 someone in a heavy fighter will most likely defeat someone in a light fighter...not due to skill but due to character level and equipment availability. But give people a reason to use that light fighter.

The current (Jumpgate Classic) ships simply beef EVERYTHING up when you move up a fighter level. You get bigger guns. More Guns. Bigger Shields. More Armor. The only reason I can think of to stick with a "lighter" fighter is for maneuverability or speed. The speed difference isn't enough to get away from the guns of the heavy ship if the pilot has moderately good aim. . . .

I think you operate from a bit of an incorrect assumption here. In Jumpgate Classic, for example, you would be a fool to fight the Dragon (Oct HF) in a Tornado (Quant HF). You would probably be a lot more successful flying an ammo Tempest with a full rack of missiles.

There is no question that some ships are mostly useless beyond certain experience bad levels in Jumpgate Classic -- Scouts, Transports, Fast Transports (with perhaps a few very specialized exceptions) and Miners. I would also add the tow, since I personally fly the HM for smaller hauls and the Tug for the big and/or heavy ones. The LF has very specialized usefulness. But I believe the MF, Fighter, HF, Bomber, Ranger and Tug all have wide usefulness -- some of which varies by faction.

I don't think it's reasonable to believe that all ships will maintain value at all experience levels, but I do agree that it can be improved a bit.

[Ratneck]

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

I think you operate from a bit of an incorrect assumption here. In Jumpgate Classic, for example, you would be a fool to fight the Dragon (Oct HF) in a Tornado (Quant HF). You would probably be a lot more successful flying an ammo Tempest with a full rack of missiles.

This is the reason I added the edit. I realize a skilled player can use a ship effectively even if it's out-gunned against a lesser opponent. I think they're aiming for getting more players (and thus more monthly subscriptions) and I'm speaking from a perspective of not having that skill to be able to go up against an equal skilled player in a higher leveled ship. I'm not talking about people who are well versed in Jumpgate Classic's ships, how to use them, and with good flying skill.

I suppose it may not make sense, but I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of a "casual" (I hate that term) player who may not be great out of the box, but may join 3 months into the game and feel like he's so far behind that no matter how well he can fly...he'll have to play for 3 months before he can have fun fighting other people. I only say this because 2 people I introduced to Jumpgate Classic gave me just that explanation for why they didn't want to play. They felt that there was no point in PvP against people in ships they had no chance of beating.

[Eraser55]

Originally Posted by Ratneck

I only say this because 2 people I introduced to Jumpgate Classic gave me just that explanation for why they didn't want to play. They felt that there was no point in PvP against people in ships they had no chance of beating.

there is no quick way to get good in Jumpgate Classic PVP.. even if you started with 100million credits and as a rank 50 with all ships available.. It will still take time to learn to fly and aim well.. Still, its 1000 times better then needing to have top level and equip to be able to beat anyone in pvp as in other games.

I love how PVP is in Jumpgate Classic cause when I kill someone It is me, not my rank or equip that matters that much.. and I can say Im better then that person in most situations, especially when you are outnumbered...

Anyway.. if they spent 2-3 days leveling, they would have gotten capable PVP ships.. to me even raven is a capable ship in groups. and that takes few hours to get..a day or two for a noob.

[Ambrosius]

This is the reason I added the edit. I realize a skilled player can use a ship effectively even if it's out-gunned against a lesser opponent.

Well you have to be "reasonably practised" to PvP in Jumpgate Classic, period. But I do not think you need to be a skilled player for a "lesser ship" to be victorious. What I illustrated applies (IMO) to the average PvPer. That being said, there is a huge gap between an average PvPer and a player who has never trained for PvP (new or vet). The latter will lose 95% of the time regardless of ship or equipment, so it really isn't relevant to the discussion.

[Ratneck]

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

Well you have to be "reasonably practised" to PvP in Jumpgate Classic, period. But I do not think you need to be a skilled player for a "lesser ship" to be victorious. What I illustrated applies (IMO) to the average PvPer. That being said, there is a huge gap between an average PvPer and a player who has never trained for PvP (new or vet). The latter will lose 95% of the time regardless of ship or equipment, so it really isn't relevant to the discussion.

I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong, I'm definitely no expert in PvP, in fact I'm quite the opposite. I enjoy PvP and the excitment, but at my skill level the ship type does indeed make all the difference (assuming my opponent is also not a good PvPer).

I'm willing to wait and see what they do with the "new" ships, I'm actually quite excited about it. Hence the reason I reactivated my account even though I have no joystick (the throttle pot is all screwy and won't turn off the trottle...and for someone who insists at docking at 98v that's a problem) and my gamepad isn't working. I'd just like Netdevil to make sure the different ships have defined roles and aren't just stepping stones to get to the top end ship....after which time they're ignored. I know alot of skilled players can use the different ships effectively for different tasks. The challange is going to be getting new players (or people who want to give PvP a shot) to see that difference and understand why they can still fly a light fighter and be an effective and important part of squad warfare.

It would be nice if you couldn't just attack anything you see in any ship and have the advantage. I'd like different ship types to be more effective the others at different tasks, thus giving people a reason to use them all. Admittedly, some of the REALLY SALTY dogs who have been playing continuously throughout the life of the game can prob. give me 1000 scanarios where they have indeed done that, but as an MMO they're going to have to be able to make that clear to new players. I feel that variety in ship type (not just skin) will help to retain users based on "fun".

A good anti-example I would use is EvE's skill system. In that system, you have to train for a purpose. If you want to be a good fighter, you have to give up another trade...like mining or production... It works out fine for them, but I like to do a bit of everything...I get bored easily. :-) I admit you can train in everything on there, but then you're just mediocre at it all and as you watch your friends/squad mates level up in their "path" you get left behind.

Now I'm just rambling, I think I lost my point a while ago!

[-Vomir-]

In "normal" MMORPG you "waste" far more time to level up and get the equipment to be able to PvP in an acceptable way than in Jumpgate Classic. How comes players like to do this rather than practicing PvP in Jumpgate Classic?
If I am completely wrong please correct me, my experience with RPG games stopped after Diablo 2 and watching friends play WoW

I see two problems about the much discussed "learning curve" in Jumpgate Classic.

Number one is that there is no guarantee that at the end you will be a "good" PvP pilot. While I say this is only psycologicaly true some may have different oppinions. I personally never seen someone who got sorted out problem number 2 not beeing able to advance in the "learning curve" to a level he was enjoying PvP. It doesn't care if you are the best pilot around if fighting is interesting, actually it is more fun if it's some kind of a challenge.

Number two is much more of a problem. Learning Jumpgate Classic PvP on your own is hardly possible at a fast enough rate to keep it interesting. You are more or less dependent on having instructors to make it fun. The several guides written by pilots are not replacing someone who learns you, they might help if you are quite talented, but I doubt I would have improved alot with only written guides (they did not exist when I started PvP).

Adding to the problems is that most new players did/do focus alot on sim fights before doing group fights. Group fighting is a much more "rewarding" experience than being blown up in sim for hours. But there again, you have to be in a squad.

[Ambrosius]

Plus Sim fighting is significantly different from realspace multi-pilot battles. Sim fighting is basically about perfecting aim and certain techniques like circling. But real space is where the rubber hits the road. RS 1:1 is much like sim, except missiles play a bigger part and running away (to recharge or to escape) is a more-utilized tactic. But group fighting requires communication, coordination and situational awareness, and you are much less often in 1:1 subfights. In short, you cannot focus on a single opponent the way you do in sim.

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by -Vomir-

In "normal" MMORPG you "waste" far more time to level up and get the equipment to be able to PvP in an acceptable way than in Jumpgate Classic. How comes players like to do this rather than practicing PvP in Jumpgate Classic?

My guess is that the average gamer sees level grinding as "playing" but would see PvP practicing as "work." For instance, in Eve, level grinding is a matter of "training" one skill after another -- something that happens while you're sleeping, working and fornicating (i.e. not playing).