[GrimGriz]

Since I can't say this over there, I'm going to do it here

Originally Posted by Wild Bill

Due to the fact that the recent work of 3 FM's covering over 6 weeks was wiped out by two "RP events" that were neither published or known of by more than a select few, I here by avow I will not be involved in any further FMs unless and until there is a guarantee by the GM's that this will not happen again.

The ability of a select few, whether pre-chosen or just happily present when the event occurs, to alter game features or processes is unacceptable. I have no objection to the folk who do most of the work, who get deeply involved in the mechanics and politics of the game, getting something extra out of it, whether it be ML Amps or Deep Radar, or specially equipped ships or just shineys. The Injustice laser was taken away from the whole server, not once, but three times without the whole server being allowed to weigh in on it, for or against, it's not right.

Restated, until the GM's give us a written guarantee or promise that FM's, as well as ship/equipment/factories/producers or science factories will not be destroyed by the actions of a few players, without the whole server being allowed to have both a say, and a part in, the I will not accept or work on any FM or TRI mission.

I can't stop you from doing it, but I will no longer lend my efforts to it. I'm not going to waste my time building sand castles just so a few people will be allowed to stomp then flat, laugh and run away.

If this was IC, I'd be all for it. It's obvious that it isn't though, and that's kind of disturbing. Is Jumpgate supposed to be like every other MMO I've tried and be meaningless? Hell, Jumpgate is the only MMO I know of where you can do missions that change the game. I've had 6 CoH characters that have defeated the Clockwork King and if I made a new one right now, I bet he'd still be there to defeat. Jumpgate is the only game I know of where there can be nothing, then the players get together and do a mission and create something.

The real problem here is that it takes GM intervention to put up the faction missions and to destroy the products thereof. If it was built into the game mechanics I don't think WB would have a problem with it. Maybe the new patch will fix that, let's hope so.

[Ambrosius]

The only thing where I'll give this some credence is if you remove the whining and pouting and distill it down to GM feedback. It appears that there was some feeling that there was not enough "hints" given to IJ proponent to give them a fair enough shot at "winning." It was also suggested that the "event" times were exclusionary to players on the east side of the Atlantic.

Although my involvement was limited, it's my understanding that things went down something like this:

- Quants initially attack OPL storage facility and set the FM back. AFAIK, there was no warning to the pro-FM forces.
- Quants make second attack on OPL storage and set the FM back big-time. This one, I participated in. JOSSH news warned of further attacks, there were a bunch of Oct HGs online, but apparently they did not read the news or did not feel like guarding GP, as they were off fighting Sols.
- FM runners take the FM from about 11-12% to 100% in one day with absurd completion levels per mission. It is impossible to stop them by taking commods (though I tried). FM runners gloat loudly as Ambro whines.
- IJ production kickoff celebration is scheduled. You KNOW something will be up. prior to being contacted by Cromforge, Quant factionalists plan on crashing the party
- Cromforge agent contact Quants and discloses plan to blow up production facility. We have 48 hours to produce 1500 units of explosives and deliver them to each station, and Chems and Nitrogen are nowhere to be found. Amazingly, dedicated Quants produce and deliver the needed explosives and "hide" them in the stations.
- On the night of the IJ kickoff celebration, a fairly small contingent of Quant escorts, fly with Cromforge agent to begin compromising the IJ facilities at approximately the same time as the GP celebration. Although the initial explosion is NOT done in GP (I think it was OC), there is purple text and (theoretically) a large pro-IJ contingent is nearby celebrating. Agent flies a "fragile" ranger, but somehow is able to dock at both OP and GP to complete the destruction of IJ facilities while his escort is repeatedly ganked.

Now it seems to me that, with the exception of the first attack on OPL storage, there was plenty of opportunity to anyone willing to RP that something was going to happen. Although events were not at EU-friendly times, I know that the pro-IJ folks had superior online presence both for the second attack on the storage facility as well as for the ultimate destruction of production facilities. Frankly none of the Quants could believe we succeeded in the last goal. And I can't believe we were able to produce 1500 explosives in so short a time.

So what to do with the feedback? IMO, I think at least some of this should have happened on a weekend afternoon to allow for more EU-pilot participation. As far as warnings -- dunno there. I think it was adequate, but subtlety is lost on some people.

Ultimately, I see most of the "whine" being not about constructive feedback on RP design, it's just the age-old complaint: "your RP is griefing my RP."

[Wild_Bill]

I keep having trouble saying things so folks will understand what I meant. I either weasle-word it to the point people choke on it, or boil it down to the point it loses all taste.

I was, and remain, very angry that something I put many hours into was destroyed. Had I known the GM's were going to allow and support a RP that was able to take away game features, I would never have invested my time, energy and credits into the FM in the first, second and third place. I worked hard on all three FMs involved. Not because I particularily wanted the IJ back. Heck, I've still got several in my POS because I seldom use IJs. I did it because they were FMs. In all my previous retail experience, FMs were to creat features, equipment, new ships, etc. Had I known to start with that FM's could be taken away or destroyed in the name of RP, I would never have been involved in the FM. I waste time frequently, but by my own decision and with full knowledge before hand.

Yeah, the fact that the work of many could be wiped out by the efforts of a few bothers me, but I could accept that. Yeah, the fact that only a very few folks were in on the deal bothers me, but I got a couple of my shineys on just such events, so again, I can live with that. But when all three elements are combined, the total is something I cannot and will not accept. I'm not going to tell anyone what or why or how or when to do anything. I didn't intend any demand to the GM's or anyone else. Like the title of my original post, it's a statement of my intent. I'm just saying if that's the way it's going to be in the future, someone else can work on the FM's. I will not.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

- Quants make second attack on OPL storage and set the FM back big-time. This one, I participated in. JOSSH news warned of further attacks, there were a bunch of Oct HGs online, but apparently they did not read the news or did not feel like guarding GP, as they were off fighting Sols.

I think that this part points at one of the real issues. TBH, events have almost always been mostly inconsequential. While it's fabulous that is changing, in the past TRINN has usually been fluff, and events usually had minor if any impact. It's not surprising that there wasn't a lot of defense at GP, because from past experience it probably wasn't going to matter.

I keep having trouble saying things so folks will understand what I meant. I either weasle-word it to the point people choke on it, or boil it down to the point it loses all taste.

I was, and remain, very angry that something I put many hours into was destroyed.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand what you meant. I think it's fine if your 'character' decides to boycott FMs from now on because of this. Several people have boycotted Hyperial FMs since their biomass facility was in reality a biomass extraction device production facility. Ask yourself this though: Would I be as angry if it was a sentient attack that destroyed the facility?

Had I known to start with that FM's could be taken away or destroyed in the name of RP, I would never have been involved in the FM.

I have to call this bluff though. Injustice production was stopped after all. Chime production was stopped. The antiflux CP was disabled (taking away the work of the FM to build it). Production and buildings have an on/off switch, and they've been used for RP purposes before.

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Had I known the GM's were going to allow and support a RP that was able to take away game features, I would never have invested my time, energy and credits into the FM in the first, second and third place. I worked hard on all three FMs involved. Not because I particularily wanted the IJ back . . . I did it because they were FMs.

Man, we are just from different worlds. There is just no way for someone who believes in RP to respond to this.

[bliz]

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

- Cromforge agent contact Quants and discloses plan to blow up production facility. We have 48 hours to produce 1500 units of explosives and deliver them to each station, and Chems and Nitrogen are nowhere to be found. Amazingly, dedicated Quants produce and deliver the needed explosives and "hide" them in the stations.

Ok what do u mean by "hide" them in stations

[Istanbul]

Bliz, drop them in the market.

[Ambrosius]

Actually, I was not there, but I believe we had people in freighters holding the explosives in their holds until the agent got there. If they had dropped them on the floor they may have been used up in missile prod or taken by others.

But like I say, I was not there so I'm just assuming this.

[Istanbul]

oh, i thought they actually dropped them on the POSs...

[spork]

Ambro is correct. We did not have to fly the freighters in during the event, they were staged there ahead of time as DDZ built the Explos at GP/OP. The only thing we had to get to the POS was M_Eull, after getting him to OC/OP/GP successfully. I still can't believe we managed that, and really I can't believe DDZ built over 1500 Explos in less than 2 days without my seeing it (since I was actively looking for DDZ online since I knew that QH/QSSP/BH weren't working on the Explos since we're all griefers ).

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

Man, we are just from different worlds. There is just no way for someone who believes in RP to respond to this.

The only response is "FM LEMMINGS!!!!1111one1"
Seriously though, your coined term of FM Lemmings is really not meant as all that derogatory (though I'm sure it has been taken that way by some), it is really descriptive only. A lot of people just have fun "accomplishing" and flying space ships with interent friends. To them, the FM is a social event where they can make a difference they can see the fruit of their labor (I personally think of the Depot FM every time I dock there...watching it grow from a core to 1,2,3 storage pods as we completed it). A lot of people play Jumpgate as an OOC game, not as a character in an imursive RP universe. There is nothing wrong with either, but the 2 paradigms are mutually exclusive on some levels. Ultimately, it's ok to just disagree and deal with stepped on toes from time to time in both directions (take into consideration our sour grapes response to the 1 day FM).


GG makes a good point in saying that (though the number of things destroyed/disabled isn't large when spread over 4 years) almost everything that has ever been destroyed or disabled has been done so in the name of RP, and most have required FMs to fix it. And some of those FMs have even been misleading to say the least.