[spork]

Further, I wonder if you like to blame them just because you're scared to talk smack about Istvan. He's the one that makes the decisions you know.

QFT, QFT, QFT, and QFT.

Nevermind the fact that a few TPs have posted in favor of a tow speed boost and none against (that I've seen recently), and in favor of more details on JOSSH and none against, and in favor of more interesting/logical flux and none against.

Originally Posted by GM_Istvan

from here
Brace yourselves, though: I think a number of the new features we need are also going to involve change to things we are all very accustomed to, and that is going to be a hard transition. Though messing with ships is not what I am going to be doing for a while, the complaints after I slowed down the Cargo Tow class are going to look like the tip of the iceberg. For better or worse, I am going to end up stirring the pot and shaking things up.

Ditto here. It looks to me like Istvan is the one Vorlon actually has a beef with. The only question remaining is if he'll grow some stones and admit it or if he will just continue to bash the TPs because they are easy targets, especially if they no longer fly their TP account on Live all that much (which obviously means they must never fly Live at all...)

------

Spreading FUD in every forum availible is probably not the best way to become a TP (in case anyone out there is chomping at the bit to join a group of people who obviously want Jumpgate to sputter along with 13 online max...) And as a TP you'll obviously be a yes-man since the patches/content/rules/decisions cannot possibly roll out over your dissenting opinion.

Sheesh.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by spork

QFT, QFT, QFT, and QFT.

That's a very bad misuse of QFT. I think you meant QFTTT&T

[vorlon31]

Stones? I will tell you where stones are needed.

I, like many people, like apples, but the apple carts driver seems hell bent on selling oranges instead and to hell with everyone who liked and wanted to buy apples. He appears not to have done any sort of market research or anything because if he did he would realise he is selling oranges to a people who are surrounded by orange groves - they liked apples.

Change is good, evolution is good but even evolution makes mistakes, the dodo was a subject of evolution too.

One mans vision driving forward one mans dreams alone will create a game that only one man truly likes.

Within a game, any change that causes mass departures from is a bad change and should never of been made.

But if a mistake has been made that caused a game that had a fair few players in it to suddenly loose some/more than are left, that change should be undone urgently IF someone has the stones to admit they were wantonly wrong.

That is where the stones are needed and lacking. IMO

Any group who are supposed to be helping with changes who fail to put this across, who lack the stones to make a stand and say NO, that will NOT WORK and I will not be a party to such a damaging event to the one responsible for making those changes are just a much to blame and if anything more so, because the one man listens only to them and so they are the only voice of the dwindling community has. IMO

[spork]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

That's a very bad misuse of QFT. I think you meant QFTTT&T

Dear GrimGriz (all others please ignore),

I could agree with you, but then I would just be a yes-man supporting your comment regarding that acronym, no matter how many people may disagree. So that's no good.

I could politely disagree with you in private and keep a respectful silence about it in public, but if I was unable to persuade you in private, it would not really matter and the comment would stand since you, in fact, own the comment even though anyone can use the acronym. So that's no good.

I could violently disagree with you, put on a party dress, set my hair on fire, run around telling people what an amazing idiot you are for forwarding your vision of that acronym via your comment, but then you probably wouldn't like me much anymore and probably wouldn't listen to my opinions anymore (opinions I have formed over 5 years of an almost daily relationship). So that's no good.

Thus instead of those no-good-options, what I will do is blame Vorlon31 for his very slight involvement in the evolution of that acronym. And I will blame Vorlon for your insistance upon forcing your comment and vision for that acronym on everyone. Because of Vorlon31's support (or at least his lack of hair-on-fire opposition) for your vision for that acronym, <insert some nebulous and totallly unverifiable quantity> of people no longer read this thread. Vorlon must enjoy driving people away from this thread and only want a handfull of people to view it during peak times. It is clear to me that Vorlon does not love this thread or the acronym and is a distructive force upon them. But I will not mention you by name in my public outlash because that might make you seem like a real person, unlike the nebulous "Those People" or "Nobody Distinctive" (TP and ND hereafter) or the evil Vorlon.

As you have implied a great many times, I know that it does not matter what you do with the acronym, you will find very few who are ever actually satisfied with it. And what people say that they want with the acronym is hardly ever what they really do want, it seems. I know that the acronym has had a really tough etimology, getting almost no support from those who were responsible for publicising it and being under mediocre care for the early stages of its formation. Anyway, thanks for taking the time out of your amazingly busy schedule to read my post, Grim. I guess I could have taken this to PM since I'm really just talking to you, but why would I do that when I can spew my vitriol on Vorlon?

[vorlon31]

sweet.

[GrimGriz]

Dear spork,

So is your face. I actually prefer it when you go and beat up other people because of the direction of my acronym, and not e-mail me directly even though I know you have my e-mail. If you could find other people using the acronym, and break their fingers (thereby making them either not use the acronym or making it less fun to use the acronym) that SURELY would be the most effective way to convince me to change the allowed acronym usage.

Love,
GrimGriz

[Ambrosius]

lol.

[Smegit]

Whilst I still cannot play, so therefore cant judge the relative arguments of both the parties, and although I have known and admired the character Vorlon for some considerable time (as an ex-EU player), I still believe that the posting by spork was one of the funiest and most imaginative I have ever read.

Made my evening that.

Smeg

[Wild_Bill]

Well spork, since you brought it up... if Istvan doesn't listen to the people helping him (test pilots, empowered players etc) or totally overrides their info and advice (since you say none of these special players are against anything that Vorlon has complained of) .. they why the bloody hell do you continue to support his stupidity? And I call it stupidity for the same reason Vorlon does. Changes that drive people away should be canceled out. Every time folks get mad and leave, fewer and fewer come back. I think it's called law of diminishing returns but I'm probably wrong.

I don't agree that the problem is the fault of the test pilots, empowered players or who-the-hell-ever is involved, since I imagine GM_Istvan is ulitimately responsible for game changes, but I would be interesed in knowing why the hell you continue to support the TP/EP program if the majority opinion is ignored so much or so frequently? Is there no reciprocity involved? I remember when Chubain resigned/was kicked out of the EP/TP program and the reasons for it. When he felt unappreciated and betrayed he had the stones to leave.

I've expressed my opinion of the MT patch several places and see no need to repeat it in this thread. I've expressed my opinion on other patches or game features, etc to the point I'm quite sure many of you would be quite happy to hear the last of me, but it is NOT going to happen. Or at least not by my own choice. As long as I pay to play, I feel entitled to express my opinion of the game and those who remain in it as players. Due to RL issues I can play no more than two days/nights per week and not always as much as I would care to then. Having said all that I'll tie this up with one last comment and a question. The game used to be a hell of a lot more fun than it is now. Why can it not reclaim the fun factor?

[spork]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Well spork, since you brought it up... if Istvan doesn't listen to the people helping him (test pilots, empowered players etc) or totally overrides their info and advice (since you say none of these special players are against anything that Vorlon has complained of) .. they why the bloody hell do you continue to support his stupidity? And I call it stupidity for the same reason Vorlon does. Changes that drive people away should be canceled out. Every time folks get mad and leave, fewer and fewer come back. I think it's called law of diminishing returns but I'm probably wrong.

The definition of a good leader is one who listens to his advisors, then makes his own decision, following what he believes to be the best course in his heart.

The law of diminishing returns is absolutely in play here with Jumpgate. But it doesn't mean what you think it means. The law of diminishing returns (the way used coloquially here, not really the real economic definition) means something like this: the more you get of something over a short time, the less you want. For example, if you give me 1 big ice cream cone, I'll love it. If you give me a 2nd cone as soon as I'm done with the first, I could take it or leave it. If you give me a 3rd big cone and force me to eat it right after eating 2 others, I'll probably hate it and stay away from ice cream cones for a few days.

I don't agree that the problem is the fault of the test pilots, empowered players or who-the-hell-ever is involved, since I imagine GM_Istvan is ulitimately responsible for game changes,

At least you have the stones to say so. Though I also don't want what I've been saying lately to be seen as backpeddling. I do support most of what Istvan has been doing even if I may have done it (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) differently myself.

but I would be interesed in knowing why the hell you continue to support the TP/EP program if the majority opinion is ignored so much or so frequently? Is there no reciprocity involved? I remember when Chubain resigned/was kicked out of the EP/TP program and the reasons for it. When he felt unappreciated and betrayed he had the stones to leave.

I don't know anything about Chubain. I can either sit on the outside and complain (which I did for a long time and resulted in essentially nothing) or I can try to be an agent for (what I consider to be) positive change on the inside. So I applied.

I've expressed my opinion of the MT patch several places and see no need to repeat it in this thread. I've expressed my opinion on other patches or game features, etc to the point I'm quite sure many of you would be quite happy to hear the last of me, but it is NOT going to happen. Or at least not by my own choice. As long as I pay to play, I feel entitled to express my opinion of the game and those who remain in it as players. Due to RL issues I can play no more than two days/nights per week and not always as much as I would care to then. Having said all that I'll tie this up with one last comment and a question. The game used to be a hell of a lot more fun than it is now. Why can it not reclaim the fun factor?

I agree with everything you said here (except for the wishing you to leave part). I have no problem with dissenting opinions (I often have one myself), or lively debate, or with taking responsibility for one's actions. I do have a problem with statements/attitudes like this:

Al, this is simply because of the ****whit mentality that exists where not telling us how the games running because 3 sado masachistic test pilots who spend their time mostly on the tast server declare how much "fun" it is for us to figure it out for ourselves.

The problem I have with statements like this is that they are simply not true, and no matter how much evidence I have given to the contrary, a tiny but vocal minority continues to spread this FUD which is itself damaging to the game IMO. I picture a noob reading the latest round of garbage about how the lone Dev is an idiot and how the TP/EPs are hoping to keep the online numbers in the teens, and I simply must continue to post a defense of the game and the good intentions of those shaping it.

To the question of fun, the missing fun element in Jumpgate for me is just people in space. Jumpgate really needs 100+ online (though I still am having fun with 20+). I would hope for 300+ online in an ideal world. I think the direct cause of low numbers is a huge combination of factors:

• DANCER (the difficult flight engine which has turned away everyone I have gotten to try Jumpgate, but it's also the best part of the game once you learn it)
• 3D0 (the non-publisher)
• Themis (other than GM_O and GM_K, with special emphasis on the ~7 months of combined silence after GM_K left both times, Go story night!)
• Total lack of moderation on the forums for the first few years (a bad thing), then the pendulum swung into absolute tyranical moderation with many bannings (a bad thing), now-a-days it seems reasonable (too little too late)
• Ep2 (crazy delay and many elements very poorly done, Haven Rangers that can steal 1 unit before you can shoot at them, ect ect ect.)
• Civ ships are easy prey by (poor) design
• Matter farming made credits meaningless, allowing civ-rippers to fly bountied indefinitely, devaluating the role of haulers, causing a poor econ situation
• Mining was too meaningless, now too meaningful for the small server population, causing a poor econ situation again

"Increasing tow speed would get people to return." Is a statement I've seen an aweful lot. If I were Istvan, and if an enterprising pilot were to put actual data to that (currently hollow) claim, it would certainly be a LOT more worth consideration than all the temper tantrums. Maybe someone should start up a petition where only TRIC pilot signatures are counted...

[SingleShot]

I <3 this thread.