[Supermax]

No-one approves of taking large numbers of non-native equipment from the nearest station just because it happens to be there. I wouldn't object to being shot down if I was found doing so (only that I wouldn't).

But that was not the point of this thread. The point was that the several thousands of FFs that were dumped on Amananth station vanished within a short period of time. Of course lots of them would end up at squad and merchant PoS, but one can safely assume that these stocks will remain there for a while, thus reducing the steady drain on FF production at least for a while. If you aren't even allowed to take stuff from a producing station when it is there in abundance, then when?

[Supermax]

Originally Posted by Radi

Then it will be like EU server but w.o CP's. I do not want that to happen. Do you?

The EU economy was changed from CP-only production to station-based production (station production started mirroring CP production) at the end of 2004 when OP-iksmit's economy changes went into effect. In the end there were only a few things that were CP only, like Burglars, Drop Tanks, Docking Computers, Repair Beams, Nukes and FlashFires.

[Wild_Bill]

SuperMax, lighten my ignorance. If EU production was station-based and not CP based (as I had heard), then how did the commodities get to the station? Were they hauled or just "dumped" there by Magic Producers, OP's or GM's?

From what you've said here, it appears that little or nothing was made on EU; it was just magically produced, snapped up by "merchants" and then stored away to be resold at POS's. Is this a correct understanding?

IF that is the case, it explains the lack of miners/producers/haulers that come over from EU.. or at least their lower percentage compared to the loads of PvP pilots from EU.

I don't know that reducing my ignorance will make me like the current situation any better, but I'd still like to know.

[Zaz]

Yeah it was great, commods spawned at certain stations and with a little effort you could get all the equipment you needed for your squad etc.

It worked because it allowed those with large pvp / fluxxing interest to go out repeatedly fighting all day long if they wished, kept the haulers happy cos they could make lots of money stocking your pos for you (if like me you got tired of running around space for 2 hours a day to get it yourself) or hauling BPC's round space. Also it generated a lot of fun for econ-noobs to investigate production / money runs etc without upsetting everyone else.

All in all, even with the extremely lazy people who begged for money rather than make their own, it was fun for all, so therefore it worked.

[GrimGriz]

Doesn't sound like any fun for miners Zaz, or are they not part of 'all'? I've always said I don't care if they kill mining, but if it's part of the game it might as well be worth doing.

[Supermax]

A few commodities that were easy to obtain by mining (like Iron) or not very heavily used (like Iridium) relied on mining only. Later on, Hyperial was set as an alternative source for Iron, so people who wanted to help the economy could decide whether they wanted to mine for the iron or whether to take the rather long and tedious trip to Hyperial. Personally I always preferred mining as I found it very rewarding when I dumped my cargohold full of common ore on Corridor station and see Machined Parts being produced soon after

[Jump]

Sounds like it was a crappy game over there. GM's running a methadone clinic just to keep a single type of player at ease.

Over here, we have strived for a long to make everything mean something. Including death. Sounds like death meant nothing over there and therefor was taken lightly.

Definitely not my type of game.

[Supermax]

It might be worth mentioning that the decay caps for commodities were significantly lower, I think somewhere around 1000, creating a very "fast" economy. So just dumping several freighter loads of raw materials on a station and be done with it for the next couple of days just wouldn't work. Keeping the economy going required constant moving of commodities around, inside the own faction's space as well as between the factions, because production of 2nd and 3rd tier commodities was somewhat faction biased. I think Quantar had a bonus with Optics/Machined Parts, Octs were best at Chemicals/Synthetics, and I can't remember what the Sols were good at, probably Magnetics and Electronics.

I do agree you have a point; personally I like the WWS system better because, as you said, the economy actually has a meaning here besides just generating wealth for hauling stuff about. However now one will probably understand better why a full reconciliation of the two playstyles will take some time.

[GrimGriz]

It still doesn't make sense that there wasn't gear on TRI stations if it was that easy to make equipment. Historically, I guess the US server was more focused on PvP, so when we had a lot of PvPers everyone decided it was funner to have gear at TRI stations. Seems like you guys thought it was funner to make credits by overcharging for equipment.

[Supermax]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

It still doesn't make sense that there wasn't gear on TRI stations if it was that easy to make equipment. Historically, I guess the US server was more focused on PvP, so when we had a lot of PvPers everyone decided it was funner to have gear at TRI stations. Seems like you guys thought it was funner to make credits by overcharging for equipment.

The economy system I just described wasn't in effect before the end of 2004, ie for roughly half a year. For little less than 2 years before that, we had a CP/PoS market based economy. And since not so long ago, CP production had a 10% markup compared to station production. You even make losses hauling equipment nowadays (which is a pity and ought to be fixed ASAP), even more so when it costs you 10% more to produce an item than you can sell it for (perhaps less if you mine all tier 1 commodities needed for production).

And by far not everyone overcharged for equipment: there were a lot of stations where traders offered equipment at little more than station price, usually to fluxers or fighters of their own faction.

[Wild_Bill]

SuperMax and Zaz, thank you for your explainations. EU doesn't sound all that horrible (if not exactly how I'd wish to play), but I still didn't see all that much about miners/producers. Once the dents get banged out, a combination or hybrid of the two systems, plus modifications/additions and new content, will hopefully make a really fun game for everyone.Istvan's post, http://www.jossh.com/forums/showthre...threadid=25397, give me hope relief is coming soon. Not just the temporary dumps of equipment/mods, but of a new production balance that hopefully will allow the ones who do wish to mine/produce/haul to have a major impact on the game and at the same time allow them to produce the supply the players are demanding. I'm interested now in seeing how many EU pilots we retain after August 1st. I hope it's enough so NetDevil can afford to buy Istvan some more help.

[Jonboy]

In short, it was squads like MACK that changed the US server from being like the EU server. Hurricane decided that there was room for roleplaying a patriotic hauler. So he put his efforts towards making Solrain strong by making sure that it was always well stocked. Similar Quantar and Oct squads existed - I just know MACK better. This was good for him too, as it meant that he had lots of sol friends too back him up. MACK also negotiated free space lanes so that its pilots could travel unmolested. this led to low tolerance of piracy.

In game actions leading to in game consequences. Jumpgate really is pretty cool. There are all sorts of examples like this, but this one is relevant. The US server evolved around attitudes like these, stocking the home stations in-character to help the defense effort and out-of-character, so that people would be sure to have fun, as full stations meant people would launch. This kind of led to reduced consequences at death - quake in space. There were forum battles over whether this was a good or bad thing, but it led to where we are now. Death has consequences. Mining has consequences. Hauling has consequences. The balance was wrong before but everyone had it too easy. now, the balance is wrong again, but it's too hard. I hope people will give it time to get better.

[/Jerry Springer]

[MajorJello]

Let the hoarders get pissed off and leave. Then we might get a chance to buy the equipment we want. There are a lot of ways to make money besides crapping on the player base making equipment scarce. By making money other ways, it actually helps the econ for everyone.