[Ambrosius]

Remember, everyone plays to have fun. So let's all play so everyone has fun. And most fun comes from overcoming challenges. So I say start getting on ND to get to work on those production modules.

All good ideas until the last sentence -- which is (IMO) just not realistic at this point. Civ-ripping strippers is one answer (though sometime difficult to do). Another is common sense and common goals.

Another is adjusting. With a few exceptions (notably Duelists and FlashFires) -- native equipment can be used on ships without disastrous result. It may create some additional balancing issues (i.e. how balanced are ships flying native-only equip). I've always thought one interesting approach to "contraband" would be to make certain (if not all) factional equipment contraband outside the faction's space.

I agree that the objective for all is "having fun." The problem is that there are so many ways to define "fun." I hope we can find some common ground for this definition before the bright opportunity offered by the Unified Server gets sullied.

[Zaz]

Originally Posted by SingleShot

I would of had to spend most of my time making money, which was painfully slow on EU as well.

Painfully slow ?

Im not a trader by any stretch of the imagination yet i was comfortably able to make 30/40/50m per day (assume an 8 hour shift 'working') just running round Sol making stuff or going wake -> OC and back on my tod. I dont see how that is even remotely possible on the new WWS.

We have come from a bouyant econ to a dead one, we have come from a scenario where kit availability meant we didnt have to mine for 36 hours just to have kit for an hours fighting. We have come from an environment where work:fun ratio was significantly higher than it is here.

If i wanted a fulltime job to fund a weekend of fun, id get one in Real life, not pay for the 'enjoyment' of one in an online game.

Still, we are here now and like it or not, pos and stripping are here too. Its a small price you have to pay and a payment a lot of eu-ers will take in recompense for the losses in gameplay we have been used to since EP2 launched.

Personally im just about willing to cut my inflight time in half to dedicate to mining and building stuff, but i doubt this applies to all the imported players and tbh, i wouldnt blame them if they did f*ckall, though ultimately they will be the loser while the rest of us try to adapt and find a balance.

[Ambrosius]

Just curious -- in your opnion, which equipment is unavailable without the (un-fun) hours of mining to produce? I know FFs . . . what else?

[Zaz]

Well, while equipment IS available, it has to be replenished by sticking the required commods on the market, else they will run out. Thats what i meant. Im talking from a POV of helping, not just taking.

[Custardx]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

Custard, the biggest problem for me with POS for equip is having to /home there. I can't change from an LF to phoon there, I can't switch tags there. In your system though, if I don't /home there I have to fly to a POS on crap engines, then fly back to QC and go HG. All the while I'm making a station stripper filthy rich. The whole thing is just frustrating, and frustration is the exact opposite of fun as far as I'm concerned.

Also, I don't see how things will 'mesh' if people with your view steal all the flashfires from the public stations so that they can sell them from their POS.

My point came with with the assumption the equipment was brought from a station where they were made. Altho I heard someone moaning about defiers being taken from Oct station yestarday despite being where they are made, off subject tho...
Now you see, I don't like being called a thief. I haven't even produced anything yet. Will it be classed as theivery if I use what the squad has mined and stored to make ff's and then buy them for us instead of waiting for a stripper? I bet you when we do get round to making some someone will accuse us of stripping even when we make them.
My idea behind people 'meshing' is that people like yourself who wish to use public stations then do so and us lot who like to use POS will stock them (without stipping before you say it, again) and home there and everything will work out fine, hopefully. Restricting what people can sell on their POS is silly as its just that, THEIR POS, which means they should be able to do what they like with it...

Just curious -- in your opnion, which equipment is unavailable without the (un-fun) hours of mining to produce? I know FFs . . . what else?

Last time this came up on f5 I also heard that instigators were in short supply as well and made like 1 per cycle on aman, 2 if Intims were maxed out..wow

Zaz is right tho, and it pains me to say it EU economy thrived, we had cargo missions for good profit that also got commods their needed stations to be turned into equip. This equip in turn was widely avaliable and stocking a POS, whilst lengthy because you have to go everywhere, was an easy job. Then you all /home in the same place and your fine. A decent POS over there could be stocked well enough for more than 1hrs worth of fighting without having to mine a tonne.
This i just a defence of the EU economy, having to mine everything here with things like helium not being produced and the like, its no use, we have to stick it...

Custardx

[Zaz]

Im always right, even when im wrong :P

I think whats not coming across very well though, even when its plainly written, is that while a this merger has disgruntled a lot of ppl, im yet to hear anyone actually saying they are quiting because of whatever problems we all face and that in itself is an encouraging sign.

[GrimGriz]

Well, perhaps it's because Istvan posts on the suggestion forums often enough to give me hope, but I don't think the economy is even close to set in stone. This game is very much still being shaped I think. If you haven't already, get your JOSSH forum access straightened away so you can see the Suggestions & Ideas forum. If I may, I'd suggest refraining from things like 'make it like it was on EU' as most of us don't know how that is. Whereas if you say 'make custom producers for everything' it's easy for everyone to understand what you're talking about (and argue with you about it).

The WWS econ is what it is now, because other than being victims for pirates, mining served no purpose. Why should I go mine common to get Iron when Sol Core produces Iron? No point. If you're going to have something in the game there should be a reason to do it.

Personally, I think the econ we have now needs adjusting. If you look at what it takes to make certain commods in this report you'll see why it's so hard to make some stuff. For example Phospho (used for flashfires and chemicals) takes mining 18 units for 1 unit of phospho. Sure you get lots of other stuff too, but you don't care about that, you're trying to make phospho. That's why I made this suggestion. I think the econ is in the right area, but we need to make adjustments so that the people who enjoy mining and hauling can make enough equipment to go around, even to the people who don't mine or haul.

I think the best thing about Jumpgate is being able to suggest and debate changes, and see the results as a lot of them work their way into the game. Scanners didn't always scan cargo for instance, it was a suggestion that made it into the game.

[Algore]

The economy while possibly being able to sustain 30 pilots before the merger, simply is not capable of sustaining things now. I get the impression that the economy team as they like to call themselves, or as I prefer to call them "the whining team" would prefer if there were no pvp'ers so they could stock stations to their hearts content.
I've always made my own stuff as had my squad, as we will continue to do so. The time spent having to do this however quite frankly puts me off playing. To keep our guys interested we need to have a decent amout of pvp, that's just the way it is. Although we have only been here for a week or 2 I don't see the situation improving, unless something is changed from above.
I mean changes from the top to do with amounts of commods yielding from roids(%), amounts of commods/equip made per cycle etc. Not this station stripping that seems to be an inbred whine on this server.
Like it or not it is the influx of EU players that may save this server. I'm not suggesting that the whole economy or others' points of view/gameplays need to change. But it makes sense that a dying game listens to the majority, and at least tries to implement changes to appease them.
Otherwise the same people can just continue to whine on F5:chat like before we turned up in the first place.

Regards
Al

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Algore

I mean changes from the top to do with amounts of commods yielding from roids(%), amounts of commods/equip made per cycle etc. Not this station stripping that seems to be an inbred whine on this server.

Unless you mention that opinion no one knows you have it. If you sit back and expect Istvan to read our minds, you're bound to be disappointed. As much attention as PvP gets (like the military stuff Istvan is working on) it always amazes me the number of civs compared to the number of HGs online.

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Algore

The economy while possibly being able to sustain 30 pilots before the merger, simply is not capable of sustaining things now. I get the impression that the economy team as they like to call themselves, or as I prefer to call them "the whining team" would prefer if there were no pvp'ers so they could stock stations to their hearts content.

Perhaps. But the econ team are not the only people working on the economy. As far as the econ's ability to sustain player numbers, in this econ model, the sustainability is dependent upon the ratio of econ players versus PvP/Fluxer players. The more heavily weighted it is to the latter (consumers) the more the econ will become a problem.

I've always made my own stuff as had my squad, as we will continue to do so. The time spent having to do this however quite frankly puts me off playing. To keep our guys interested we need to have a decent amout of pvp, that's just the way it is. Although we have only been here for a week or 2 I don't see the situation improving, unless something is changed from above.

I have tended to be like you, trying to make my squad self-sufficient. But I believe that we may all be better off involving others -- even if in only a limited way -- to keep us supplied for battle. The interdependency is good for the game (IMO).

I mean changes from the top to do with amounts of commods yielding from roids(%), amounts of commods/equip made per cycle etc. Not this station stripping that seems to be an inbred whine on this server.
Like it or not it is the influx of EU players that may save this server. I'm not suggesting that the whole economy or others' points of view/gameplays need to change. But it makes sense that a dying game listens to the majority, and at least tries to implement changes to appease them.

I agree that mining yield and production balancing needs quick attention, but station stripping needs to stop. It's completely counter-productive to the game. But I'll agree, the best way to stop it is not with whining, but with scanners and guns.

[SingleShot]

Originally Posted by Zaz

Painfully slow ?

Im not a trader by any stretch of the imagination yet i was comfortably able to make 30/40/50m per day (assume an 8 hour shift 'working') just running round Sol making stuff or going wake -> OC and back on my tod. I dont see how that is even remotely possible on the new WWS.

I'm speaking of the classic US econ, not the current one. You're quite correct when you say you can't make cash here now. Personally, it doesn't bother me since I still have 800 mill worth of farm cash laying around. I could keep playing Jumpgate for many more years without ever needing to make money again...but I can see why it's painful for people that need to/want to.

And not to bash the EU econ to hard (it was really nice once the CPs started vanishing), I could make the 30-50 in about half the time on US. EU, not only was it slower as shown, I had no seed cash or PR either (TBH gr33f0r 4 life, y0)