[SingleShot]

I'm sure the CP "economy" was wonderful for nonfighters, because they don't die very often...cost per death isn't nearly such a big deal them. For players that fight, it is. Scarcity wasn't the problem with CPs, things are at least as scarce if not more in the Istvan econ. The problem was cost.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Magnus

It should be the other way around. Noone will mine silicone and iron except for the cases when u really need them to produce something and this will not be enough. Thos few mined commods should be expensive ones,tomake it worth minning them. The rest should be spawned.

Prices can be adjusted. I suggest iron and silicon because they are fairly easy to come by. As opposed to say cesium, where you have to mine 50-some units to make 1.

Ofcourse, with mining being the only way to get it, and purportedly very few people who like to mine, those few people should be able to set the price to what they feel their ore is worth.

[Argyris]

Originally Posted by SingleShot

I'm sure the CP "economy" was wonderful for nonfighters, because they don't die very often...cost per death isn't nearly such a big deal them. For players that fight, it is. Scarcity wasn't the problem with CPs, things are at least as scarce if not more in the Istvan econ. The problem was cost.

And this is exactly the misunderstanding. Equipping was not really a big deal because there was a market! Markets tend to regulate prices by demand and offer and that's exactly how it worked on EU. There were a lot of "econ" squads who were in competition to each other and whoever produced most efficiently would offer the items for the best prices. I think there is a word for that: "capitalism". The way it's (not) working here is much more similar to the regulated economy that used to exist in the former socialist states and the result is pretty much the same: people are leaving because they can't pursuit their fortune...

Quite ironic really that we have to lecture americans about that :P

[Algore]

@Ambro.
I think they don't, and I'm not convinced you know what you are talking about.
I'm not convinced with all your knowledge you know what you are talking about either.

[SingleShot]

Originally Posted by Argyris

And this is exactly the misunderstanding. Equipping was not really a big deal because there was a market! Markets tend to regulate prices by demand and offer and that's exactly how it worked on EU. There were a lot of "econ" squads who were in competition to each other and whoever produced most efficiently would offer the items for the best prices. I think there is a word for that: "capitalism". The way it's (not) working here is much more similar to the regulated economy that used to exist in the former socialist states and the result is pretty much the same: people are leaving because they can't pursuit their fortune...

Quite ironic really that we have to lecture americans about that :P

Heh. That would be the ideal situation, but there is a problem. It isn't raw ship cost - Quantar could still fly with 4.x million credit Instigators back in the day, though no doubt farming helped with that.
The problem is insurance. As the price of gear is increased from the base TRI price, the cost of death goes up dramatically because you're only insured for that original base price. Thus, seemingly small % markups on gear = massive losses for someone that dies.

Then we come to CPs, which overcharged for their gear by pretty signifigant amounts. I won't talk about numbers because I honestly don't remember them, but it was pretty bad. Thus even if you were homing out of a squad station with very competitive prices, you lost craploads of cash. As Al was so willing to say, I would have never been able to play on EU without my "sugar daddy". I am not basing my criticism/whining about EU exactly on that: back in those days expecting to PvP without making money on the side was a bit much unless you built up lots of cash before hand. But the amount of work I would have had to do if I was a "real" EU player would have been depressingly large. You don't have to believe me, but I remember even Nicator having some Cost of Death concerns, back in the day. So I don't think I was the only whynar.

Nice system in theory though. Although you also had the fact that it must've used up HUGE amounts of commods (with 1:1 production ratios and all).


Edit: At best, I'm only half American...

[Argyris]

I agree with you SS. If you wanted to do PvP you had to do some working in order to finance it or have a sponsor who would help you out. My point is this, there were sensible ways to make the money to cover your expenses in a reasonable amount of time that didn't involve mining. Sensible profit runs (aka cargo missions) which actually kicked of the production of certain commods were not only possible but an integral part of the EU economy. With a bit of careful planning and coordination between a few pilots it was possible to not only make money but help the stations produce important stuff at the same time and that was a playstyle which attracted many non-PvPers who got bored to death here.
I was doing it too and I would still pay for my 1st account if I could still do it and I'm convinced that this is what made the universe there feel so much more "alive". And I didn't even speak of the implications for player driven RP yet.

I know what you mean though, SingleShot, when you say:

You don't have to believe me, but I remember even Nicator having some Cost of Death concerns, back in the day.

and you're right. Everyone had those concerns but personally I would love to concern myself about that and be a whiner every once in a while rather than having everything for station prices and still running out of money sooner or later when my only option to make any is mining. Because this is an outlook which really is driving tears into my eyes and gives whining a whole new meaning...

[king0815]

lol, do you still discuss that economy stuff?

It must be clear for every mindfull player of Jumpgate that the fact that all equip is available on every station does not lead to higher number of players. Instead of higher online numbers, we have seen lots of trader-squads leaving.

P.s.: I have never seen any pvp-pilot leaving Jumpgate, because he was running out of cash.

P.s.s.: QSSP-Pilots died very often and nobody left because of this.

P.s.s.s.: PVP-Pilots allways had a lot of cash or managed it to get some if getting low....


regards


king0815

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Algore

@Ambro.
I think they don't, and I'm not convinced you know what you are talking about.

I'm not convinced with all your knowledge you know what you are talking about either.

OK.

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Algore

@Ambro.
I think they don't, and I'm not convinced you know what you are talking about.

I'm not convinced with all your knowledge you know what you are talking about either.

LOL. Well OK. Go have fun playing on the glorious EU server and you wont have to worry about my ignorance any more .

[Ambrosius]

Originally Posted by Lordopic

TBO i have hered about it but im not really sure wht it is somthing to do with striping one station to push the price up else where or am i really way off?

So er no not all of us do know

It was done almost exclusively here with Matter Converters (now Power converters). All were removed from one station and oversupplied at another. The overly-simplistic econ algorithms made the station with 0 Matcons price shoot up over a matter of hours while the over-supplied station price dropped. There was no adjustment for station need or universal supply.

Once there was about about a 30k per unit differential, the far was off and running and "pilots" would haul like crazy from one station to the other, with initial runs generating about 15mm credits per tow-load in profit. It was easy to make 50mm in a half hour or so.

The rinse and repeat in the opposite direction six hours later. PvP squads were some of the biggest offenders as they used the massive profits to make death meaningless (since equip supplies at all stations was usually in absurd excess).

[Lordopic]

Originally Posted by Ambrosius

LOL. Well OK. Go have fun playing on the glorious EU server and you wont have to worry about my ignorance any more .

if only we could.

But on a serious note why hasn’t it been brought back but in a less damaging form? I mean I like the idea of a station paying more for an item if it hasn’t got it, sort of adds meaning to hauling ( im not suggesting the sort of pay outs that you had before which does seem a bit obese, but this is one of the things I noticed about the last few FM’s it was asking for X which could only be found Y and would cost you money even with the payout from the FM, hence making sugar mountains of comods, and killing any sort of hauling.