[GrimGriz]

I spent way too long writing this beast, and of course the Jumpgate Evolution forums at ND are hassling me and won't let me post it. I'm going to screw around for awhile, to wait for that to resolve. In the meantime, I was wondering what you guys would think of it, so here it is:

I've heard you're a big fan of WoW. I have to ask, have you ever played on a PvP server? Here's an anecdotal experience of mine that might illustrate why some of us are so concerned about level and gear being so important in Jumpgate Evolution.

I played WoW on a PvP server. The reason for this was because that's the server my friend was playing on. Even though she completely loathed the PvP aspect of the server, her and her friends had joined a PvP server because when they left City of Heroes as a group, they joined a friend who had left previously. So, like them, in order to play with my friends I joined a server that didn't necessarily match my playstyle.

Not being completely averse to PvP due to my nature and Jumpgate history, about the time I was in the level 30-ish range, my mighty dwarf Hubrokwin (who-broke-wind) went to this place called Thousand Needles or something, which was a contested zone. I ran into a similarly level Horde person and we fought. Eventually, a level 70 strolled along and wiped the floor with one of us. The other one called in his level 70 friend and everyone corpse-camped each other until one side logged out.

Over time the same scenario played itself out over and over again. Eventually, people brought out their max-level characters to end the fight. This sucked for me, because my max level character was Hubrokwin. I came to realize, that outside of the level mandated battle grounds, you kinda had to be level 70 to pvp, or eventually a 70 would come along for one side or the other and put an end to it.

So, I started doing the PvP battlegrounds. What luck! No high level would come repeatedly stomp me. I'd at least have a fair shake. Not so. The same people with high level characters had high level gear, or knew where to get it, or had the funds to buy it off the auction for their low level characters. So when in the equal-level battlegrounds you had to have twinked gear to be effective, or at least to be on par and get a fair shot.

In the end, I couldn't PvP in the world until 70, and I couldn't really PvP in the battle grounds without twinked gear, which I figured would be easy to buy at the auction house if I had the gold you make at level 70. Unfortunately, I had Alt-itis, and while I had about 5 characters between levels 20 and 40, the game got to be a real grind at that point and I lost interest. Blizzard lost me as a customer because I wanted to PvP, and they designed a game where I had to grind to 70 or grind for gear to compete in PvP.

Jumpgate Classic However...

Jumpgate Classic originally started somewhat similar to the way it sounds like you're trying to make Jumpgate Evolution. Gear and level were important. The Fighter was better than the Light Fighter in every possible way. Fortunately, the fighter was the big daddy, and you got it at level 26 out of 50. So, you could level up half way and start PvPing.

When the bombers came out some would argue that they were more powerful than the fighters. I don't recall the specifics, but I'm pretty sure at least the sol one was. A beautiful thing happened. They balanced the new bomber to be different, but not better than the fighters. So, even though the bomber was level 30 (or whatever), it was just another choice. You didn't have to level to 30 to pvp, you could pvp just fine at level 26.

The Medium fighter came out and some point, and it stuck to the original gear/level model. It was better than the LF but worse than the fighter. You could TRY to pvp in it, but really it was just a stepping stone, and new players were told to use it to level to a fighter faster if they wanted to PvP.

The HF came out at some point also, and maybe for a very small while it was better than the fighters, but again, it was balanced down to level 26. With the exception of the dragon ofcourse (opinion of mine). So even though it was a level 34 (or whatever ship) you didn't have to level to PvP, you just had another choice of what ship to fight in. Even though you were level 34, a skilled level 26 could take you down (and in the case of the monsoon...there wasn't a whole lot of skill required).

So, when you got to max level, you had 3 good ships to choose from for fighting (arguably 4-5) if you count the scout/rangers. Then one day, Istvan rebalanced the LF and MF, and behold, people at level 50 had 2 more ships to choose from. Out of something like 16 ships, a good 4-6 were PvP viable. A player could start to contribute to battles by level 9, and be a real asset by level 18, all based on their piloting ability.

Jumpgate Evolution Then...

We've been told level will = better. I ask then: What level are you going to balance for PvP? Are you going to do like WoW, and balance pvp for level 70s, or like Jumpgate Classic and balance lower? Will I have to grind to the top before I can pvp? Of the 20 ships you make for my faction, how many will be worthwhile when I hit max level? 2? 7? How long will we have to grind before we can PvP without a higher level coming in and wiping the floor with us because of level and gear?

[SpiritOne]

I have to agree with you here Grim. That is one part of WoW I have always, and still hate (because for lack of anything better to do I still play that POS game). That game is and always has been about how many lvl 70s you can bring in a fight. Sometimes your on the side with the most, and sometimes your on the shit end of the stick.

Grinding is no fun. I have played WoW off and on for a long time, and I still don't have a 70, mostly because I really don't care to actually do the grind. I get very bored of it all after a while. Jumpgate Evolution NEEDS to be like Jumpgate Classic and let people get involved in PVP at the earlier lvls. Let the light fighters be viable combat ships. I understand that player A has been playing for X+60 days which equals to more money than player B that has only been playing for X amount of days but that doesn't mean that player B's gameplay should feel like he cannot compete with other players.

I think there is no worse example than this than is Eve Online, the time-skill versus grind-skill based gameplay. There are now players in Eve with well over 70 million skill points, how the hell is a noob in that game ever supposed to compete with that? Its not possible. There is no way he can ever catch up, there is no way he can ever compete. At least in grind-skill a lvl 60 can catch a lvl 70.

NetDevil, I know your trying to make a game to appeal to the masses, and right now WoW = $$$$, but don't forget the old adage "Dance with the one that brought you". Jumpgate Evolution needs to have some familiar aspects to it in the leveling and combat aspects. I like the idea of crafting equipment, but don't make it to where you have to be max level to be the most effective at pvp or pve.

[Radi]

I agree. In order to win, you should not be totally depended on a gear or level.

[Istanbul]

I think it should be skill dependent, except for the risk taking explorers who find the win button out on The Edge, and then they become uber.

err... scratch that second half.

[Injustice]

I honestly couldn't care less if I have to grind to 26 or 50 to PvP, because you can't always have your cake and eat it too. I will "grind" to whatever level I deem is necessary to do what I want to do, regardless of what number it is. That being said, I would much rather grind to level 50 and enjoy it than grind to level 20 and be bored out of my mind. People that play MMO's want to feel like they're making progress.

Despite what you may think about the level grind, I guarantee you the level of whining your producing now will pale in comparison to the whining you'll here from people that're unfamiliar with Jumpgate when they get their ass handed to them by a level 15 when they're level 40.

[ELPIRATA]

Well, I do agree with GG too. I'd like to see Jumpgate Evolution to remain at what Jumpgate Classic has done if not better but never go to worse. I'd think that having ships ready to fight at lower levels will give people more choices and thus enter many into the PvP realm faster.

For new folks to enjoy PvP as much as we've had they need to be able to see the choice sooner rather than later, is not like they're affecting the world too much but its a start.

ELP

[SingleShot]

Of course the WoW person would get stomped in Jumpgate too.

Sure, they're a level 22 (These days that's all you need, iirc) and the other guy's a level 50. But equipment or not at level 22 you're definitely not nearly experienced enough to fight with someone that's been around until opti. You don't have to grind characters, you have to "grind" skills. Or buy a FF2.

Not that I like hard to get equipment determining battles or anything. Just saying.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by SingleShot

Sure, they're a level 22 (These days that's all you need, iirc) and the other guy's a level 50. But equipment or not at level 22 you're definitely not nearly experienced enough to fight with someone that's been around until opti.

That's not necessarily true single, I could be the 50

[Eraser55]

Still in Jumpgate, Pilot skill> Gear. So even if I do own much better ship, a better skilled pilot will beat me, even if he is in a crappier ship.

I dont think it can be compared to WoW's system, because Wow does not require any Player skill.. So its all about gear. And as long as you have to manually fly and aim, its not going to be that way in Jumpgate.