[Aphelion]

Back at my home AQM boards, many of the old vets have been complaining about what killed Jumpgate, but the thing that I found to be a common thread among those QQers was they all didn't want the game to become "Quake in Space." Granted, most of us left before the actual flight PvP became boring, but spend a week in the sim honing your aim and you'll get the gist of what I'm trying to describe.

The only solution I can think of to allievate this dilemma is basically the RPG concept of character classes. Generally speaking, if 8 million people are subscribed to WoW right now, it proves that people want to be the "gears in the machine." While we could all argue the fun/lame parts of WoW, no one can argue that it wasn't a success. To combat repetitive game play in Jumpgate I propose using the different classes of fighter craft as the basis for different character classes, then using the equipment of those ships to tweak it to an individual's playstyle.

Examples could include many of the idea's floating around this forum right now.

The ECM fighter is pretty much a rogue allready. Go stealth in a weakly defended ship with decent weapons. By the time they find you, you've allready assassinated one ship. Whether you live past that is a testament to your skill or how fast you can cloak again. Equipment loadouts could affect your firepower, how fast you could cloak again, and your survivability.

The Bomber in my mind could fill the role of anti-armor in games like Battlefield or Call of Duty. The enemy brings in their capital ship (tank) and is raping your standard fighters (infantry) so you respawn or you bring along a bomber to counter-act the capital ship.

Fighers could be a nice mix of survivability with firepower. A general ship used in multi-role situations. (Multi-role Superiority Fighter sounds nice too)

Jumpgate Classic seemed to allready have this basis started but without real gear options and with classes limited by faction. Phoons = dps + manueverability, nix = tank + dps, tens = dps + accel, etc. I'm just proposing we expand it and the only good example I can really look towards is Blizzard's character class system with three different talent trees.

Now, my question to you JSR people, is this too cookie-cutter itself? Does this place you into a role you're constrained by? What if you could switch these classes at your POS or every time you respawned, would that throw off balance? Or should you have to level up in each "class" or "talent tree?" If there were 8 classes, and 3 versions of each to choose from, would 24 different play styles be enough, or should every fighter be like Jumpgate now, which allows for a less rigid playstyle?

Are fighter/character classes a good idea?

Personally I don't think there should be any leveling or penalty for switching. I like the idea and I think the ship-level requirements that are currently in place will give people reasons to level up, while at the same time give access to PvP at low levels. Balance is the key here though, and the more classes you introduce, the more difficult it is to keep them unique and equal.

Now I must stop rambling and work on my summer school content *cough* I mean homework.

[GrimGriz]

For me, the differences in LF, MF, HF, and bomber the last time I played Jumpgate Classic (coulpa months ago) were diverse enough that I had a very different experience fighting in each ship type. Sadly, most of AQM were long gone before those changes happened.

I don't think "standard" mmo classes (tank for example) should be applied to Jumpgate Evolution ships, but I wouldn't mind every faction having a battlewagon like the oct HM.

[Aphelion]

I know Karash was complaining that he never got the chance to REALLY decide between Shepard's and Guzzlers (of course, he wasn't a power-hungry Quant...) but I think this is a small step towards a larger picture.

I've seen three different threads already discuss an ECM specialized ship. I know that WoW in space would be really lame, but I can't help but think that they took a point-and-click game and added enough options to make it almost seem like you had skill in PvP.

Unless there have been massive ship changes, I played after the LF/MF patches and I loved the new role's they provided, but in the end I still used my fighter (although I guess most pack-quants were all in pests, aka mini tensys). As lame as it sounds, I almost feel like each faction should only have one or two unique ships since it makes it so much easier to balance. I mean, this is an MMO, and the easiest way to balance is by giving each side the same tools. StarCraft had three unique races, but an RTS is completely different then an MMO and even Blizzard got rid of the faction-specific character classes in WoW.

Capital ships could have minimal offense, but would be best used as a portable R/R/R center. Just like in WoW or RTS's, players would have to decide to kill the healer (capital) first, or to kill the fighters that can be repaired.

Hell, if there's RB's, then capital ships could even be the tanks. There's just so many combinations out there. I could change my phoon from a super light, near tensy T/M fighter, to a heavy ammo behemoth with current Jumpgate Classic equipment changes, but I always felt the optimum equipment loadouts were always the best.

[GrimGriz]

WoW's class options actually seemed really limited to me compared to CoH. PvP in those games do take skill, but it's more of a when do I click what to counter what bob just clicked kinda skill.

They could actually add that to Jumpgate Evolution fairly easily. Imagine for a second they put bigger shields and 2 turrets on the Khamsin, but when fighting instead of manning a turret and trying to aim, the Khamsin pilot adjusted energy (say from rear shields to front turret) and when to activate their EMP or when to fire what missile. Meanwhile, I'm dropping flying by trying to pick off the turrets with old Jumpgate-type skill to get him to transfer power away from the rear shields so my buddies can flashfire-drop a torp up his tailpipe. Then after his podride he can review his flight recorder to see how we got the drop on him.

Still, as far as classes go, they're very limiting. Games like WoW and CoH thrive on giving you reasons to grind the level treadmil with multiple characters/alts because they know it will eat your time.

[Aphelion]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

Still, as far as classes go, they're very limiting. Games like WoW and CoH thrive on giving you reasons to grind the level treadmil with multiple characters/alts because they know it will eat your time.

I just want to make it clear that I don't want any extra grinding at all. The ships and the equipment would make up the "classes," not your skill in that class.

Example: I've got three basic loadouts for a phoon. I need to be lvl 26 to access the phoon, and lvl 34 to get all the equipment (or a broker, HA BROKERS! Forgot about that fun part of Jumpgate)

1) Interceptor: I buy the lightest equip possible for the best T/M. I've got lasers, a spore cap and other lightweight items sacrificing stuff for the T/M.

2) Highest DPS: I get the biggest guns, ammo, and the deepol, maybe cut my engines to Shepards for the extra power.

3) Hybrid: This is the standard phoon loadout, guzzies, thorns/ions, whatever.

So those are three "talents" I could choose in my "class." The talents are the equip options (there should be three different, unique and balanced options for each ship) and the classes are the ship itself (LF, MF, F, B, etc).

That's all I'm really asking for. Not some "Mine XXX roids to get Rad medal allowing you to mine lvl 60 semifluxor roids." treadmill. Just nice, different ships, with different equip options. I think others have asked for this too, but I'm putting it in WoW terms that 8 million people should be able to understand.

[Raz]

Why is every other thread here "We need to make this game like WoW?'

Sigh. Jumpgate ALREADY has classes. Rangers scout. all the different sizes of fighters have different roles in the fleet.

Yes, this can be expanded by far to give some ships better bombing, some better dogfighting, etc.

But just saying 'character classes...because WoW did it!' is absolutely pointless.

Here's the numbers. WoW is ONE game. How many other class-based, levelling games have NOT succeeeded? (Hint: It's a lot more.)

Jumpgate already has 'DPS'. It's ammo, and the disadvantage is it's harder to aim.

More equipment variety I agree with 100%. But why do we always have to say 'This is going to work because WoW did it like this!'

Countless other games have tried to ensure they succeed with the exact same train of thought.

They failed.

[Aphelion]

Let me just reiterate some key points here.

Originally Posted by Aphelion

I just want to make it clear that I don't want any extra grinding at all. The ships and the equipment would make up the "classes," not your skill in that class.

Originally Posted by Raz

Why is every other thread here "We need to make this game like WoW?'

Sigh. Jumpgate ALREADY has classes. Rangers scout. all the different sizes of fighters have different roles in the fleet.

Yes, this can be expanded by far to give some ships better bombing, some better dogfighting, etc.

Jumpgate already has 'DPS'. It's ammo, and the disadvantage is it's harder to aim.

More equipment variety I agree with 100%.

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

For me, the differences in LF, MF, HF, and bomber the last time I played Jumpgate Classic (coulpa months ago) were diverse enough that I had a very different experience fighting in each ship type.

Originally Posted by Aphelion

I know Karash was complaining that he never got the chance to REALLY decide between Shepard's and Guzzlers (of course, he wasn't a power-hungry Quant...) but I think this is a small step towards a larger picture.

I've seen three different threads already discuss an ECM specialized ship. I know that WoW in space would be really lame, but I can't help but think that they took a point-and-click game and added enough options to make it almost seem like you had skill in PvP.

Unless there have been massive ship changes, I played after the LF/MF patches and I loved the new role's they provided, but in the end I still used my fighter (although I guess most pack-quants were all in pests, aka mini tensys).

So, main point of my "classes" idea is to take current game/ship options (PvP options: LF, MF, F, HF, B; Hauler; Explorer; Miner) and give each ship three different equipment loadouts that are different and balanced. For example, loadout one for a Fighter could sacrifice defense for offense, loadout two would be ECM suited, and loadout three would be offense over defense. This is possible in Jumpgate Classic right now, but the only real choices I saw were ammo/laser/ion, and the Shepard/Guzzler efficiency/speed decisions. I'd like the options expanded through additional equipment.

It looks to me like we're all on the same page here. Different equipment = good. In all honesty, the three factions and different ship loadouts of Jumpgate Classic already resemble the class system present in WoW or any other game.

[Pyrophred]

Originally Posted by Raz

Why is every other thread here "We need to make this game like WoW?'

We arent saying "We need to emulate WoW!!!!"

its just that ATM WoW is the most successful game out there, and its easy to make comparisons despite it being a fairly apples/oranges one. if we were having these discussions when the original Jumpgate came out, there would be constant references to EQ because that was what was big then.

the thing is we need these distinctions however you make them or the game gets real old real fast. Just get used to the WoW comparisons because that is the frame of reference that is currently easiest to make/use/recognize.

Back to the OP, the concept is sound, but only if you have the numbers to support it, and the ability to switch basically at will.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Pyrophred

if we were having these discussions when the original Jumpgate came out, there would be constant references to EQ because that was what was big then.

Wasn't the whole "in space, no one can hear you bake bread" thing one of those references?

[Pyrophred]

It might have been. Its a valid point too. I hate losing track of conversations in WoW because someone nearby is making bandages