Game Realism

Tim

Yeah, all good points. Especially about the real money being used in a game. Anybody look at SecondLife lately? That's the basis for the entire game.. real money buying imaginary things. Linden Labs (the creators of second life) are freaking genius'. People give them money, and they give the picture of a shirt to an in-game avatar. Amazing. Now _there's_ your suspension of disbelief.

I think maybe i'm starting to see what you guys are driving at.. tho it still seems to me that the 'realism' battlecry is more of a 'i want to imagine i could actually do this thing that i can't do in real life' kind of a battlecry. Which comes off sounding more negative than I intend it to, i'm just not smart enough to phrase it better.

I guess, here's the question, and this is why the debate isn't merely semantic in nature... do we want immersion, or do we want the illusion of power? (clearly each answer requires different objectives for programmers)

netburnr

I am avidly against real money being used in game. I have enjoyed the other posts though, keep it up

WileE

In a word Tim, we want both. You are talking about two different concepts. Everyone wants an illusion of power. That is what drives the RPG dream. I do not know of anyone who ever wanted to RP just an average guy with no real skill or ability. We RP powerful wizards, and mighty warriors and whatnot.

The immersion is the vehicle which serves to satiate the dream by giving the illusion that it "feels" real. With the old PnP RP games, immersion was both easier and more difficult to maintain. You could write up a backstory for your character, and paint miniatures and have scale maps, but your only immersion came from the ability to captivate your imagination.

I feel it is easier to attain immersion in an MMO computer game, because you have the added benefit of visual and auditory stimulation to better captivate the conscious mind.

I concur that the debate is not one of semantics, rather the theory and concept behind the semantic trappings.

GrimGriz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

do we want immersion, or do we want the illusion of power? (clearly each answer requires different objectives for programmers)

We want immersion in a universe where our characters(we) are more than common.

dailatron · 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WileE

In a word Tim, we want both. You are talking about two different concepts. Everyone wants an illusion of power. That is what drives the RPG dream. I do not know of anyone who ever wanted to RP just an average guy with no real skill or ability. We RP powerful wizards, and mighty warriors and whatnot.

Really ?. Some people need to get a life then.

I never thought of miners as wanting to be the all powerful miner of silicon. But then what do I know.

WileE

Quote:

Originally Posted by dailatron

Really ?. Some people need to get a life then.

I never thought of miners as wanting to be the all powerful miner of silicon. But then what do I know.

So, you just want to RP a regular old miner. Just launch, mine, and dock? More power to you.

I guess I misstated my thought. Most people do not want to RP the things that they are in real life. They do not want to RP some guy who works in an office, for instance. Most people want to RP something more grand. In your case, I think that miners, especially in the new economy, are masters of the economy, so to be honest, by being a miner, you are an all-powerful provider of base commodities.

But what the hell do I know??

dahalb

In my mind, daslog hit the nail on the head. "Realism" in a game is about the suspension of disbelief. Games, by nature are never "real". They are projections of fantasy that are designed to give the participant a sense of joy. The "balance" of this lies in the relationships between the actions and consequences possible in the game construct. Getting back to your original point, "death" represents a consequence rather than actual death. The gravity of that consequence is what some would dispute as either too low or too high. IMO, when the arguments for and against are as evenly distributed as they are presently, then the "balance" is about right.

On the RM count, can i just say, that bringing real life issues into what is supposed to be an enjoyable diversion from real life is not something i am for. The ability for some ppl to overpower or out spend someone because of their real world wealth is taking what should be a level playing field and skewing it massively in a single direction. This is not what a game should be based on.

Istanbul

I do a lot of mining, but that's more cuz It's kind of relaxing than that I feel any sense of power over anything by doing so. My pilot is more or less just a normal everyday, college educated engineer from hyperial who flies oct space ships (and has a set of callsigns for the other factions too). I may have gone into PvPing more than I did if everytime there was a battle, f5 didn't flood with stupid namecalling and fingerpointing.

GrimGriz

He who controls the spice....

ELPIRATA

@dailatron: Well, as a miner I can tell you that we feel some pride on providing certain difficult to mine commodities. Being a good silicon provider that econ producers look for can be satisfying in our own sense. Being able to move 100,000u of commodities in one week can be satisfying for a hauler, as much depends on how much they appreciate that fact on their own.

It has felt good to be the best Octavian miner in all the mining contests that Romulus organized in Jumpgate Classic, Im below par in terms of mining hardware (compared to both sols and quants - pre mining patch - the one that gave the banker more speed and such) therefore finishing 3rd in a contest is actually very good for a miner and an octavian.

ELP

dailatron

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

@dailatron: Well, as a miner I can tell you that we feel some pride on providing certain difficult to mine commodities. Being a good silicon provider that econ producers look for can be satisfying in our own sense. Being able to move 100,000u of commodities in one week can be satisfying for a hauler, as much depends on how much they appreciate that fact on their own.

What ever floats your boat m8.

Personaly, I never forget Im only playing a game and as long as Im not cheating or exploiting Im happy. There is a place for mediocrity too in realism, is all Im saying.

@ WileE if you refer to me as a miner AGAIN I will civ rip you. I only used it as an example.

(Thats a joke in case anyone didnt get it)

Ambrosius

Books are not real; movies are not real; but part of the success of any entertainment medium is "willing suspension of disbelief." Properly done, you can create an alternate reality provided you do it properly and stay completely consistent. Istvan has talked about the balance between "gamist" and "simulationist" preferences any number of times.The whole piracy debate really goes back to the PoD "pirates" are not REALLY pirates, they're muggers. So the argument was (IMO) about reality there, not Jumpgate. It was (again, IMO) a Disneyfiied Jack Sparrow definition of pirate . . . which I disputed based on pirates from the "Golden Age of Piracy" (18th century).Lots of semantics going on there.Frankly, I'd personally love to see pilot death introduced (including clones that can be purchased at various levels at varying levels of absurd cost) -- with death/pod malfunction being a rare occurrence but not an impossibility.But it would be an incredibly poor move to implement this as my feelings on the subject are way outside the mainstream.

TRI Pilots On Duty
On Duty:	27
In Flight:	17
Solrain:	4
Octavius:	11
Quantar:	12
TRI:	0

Category	Pilot	Score
Kills	Algore	2,742
Kill Ratio*	Greedy	650.000 %
Bounty Collected	Killntime	407,838,097
Munitions Accuracy*	Psycho	85.915 %
Projectile Accuracy*	BADDAL	100 %
Total Conflux Kills	vorlon31	148,870
Experience	Adi564	100,000,000
Mission Success Ratio*	Arkady	100 %
Insurance Rating*	Knork	10 %
Net Worth	McPlowed	c22,001,122,678
Duty Hours	RedDwarf	17,065.0
*minimum requirements to qualify


	Tim Head Goober Joystick: Some 3-axis thing. It's black. Join Date: May 2004 Location: recovering from Naked Volleyball Posts: 789	Re: Game Realism Yeah, all good points. Especially about the real money being used in a game. Anybody look at SecondLife lately? That's the basis for the entire game.. real money buying imaginary things. Linden Labs (the creators of second life) are freaking genius'. People give them money, and they give the picture of a shirt to an in-game avatar. Amazing. Now _there's_ your suspension of disbelief. I think maybe i'm starting to see what you guys are driving at.. tho it still seems to me that the 'realism' battlecry is more of a 'i want to imagine i could actually do this thing that i can't do in real life' kind of a battlecry. Which comes off sounding more negative than I intend it to, i'm just not smart enough to phrase it better. I guess, here's the question, and this is why the debate isn't merely semantic in nature... do we want immersion, or do we want the illusion of power? (clearly each answer requires different objectives for programmers)
		__________________ "Come on guys, this is the internet we're talking about. Guys are guys, girls are guys, and kids are the FBI." --Injustice


	WileE Member Pilot Name: WileE Joystick: MS FF2 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 252	Re: Game Realism In a word Tim, we want both. You are talking about two different concepts. Everyone wants an illusion of power. That is what drives the RPG dream. I do not know of anyone who ever wanted to RP just an average guy with no real skill or ability. We RP powerful wizards, and mighty warriors and whatnot. The immersion is the vehicle which serves to satiate the dream by giving the illusion that it "feels" real. With the old PnP RP games, immersion was both easier and more difficult to maintain. You could write up a backstory for your character, and paint miniatures and have scale maps, but your only immersion came from the ability to captivate your imagination. I feel it is easier to attain immersion in an MMO computer game, because you have the added benefit of visual and auditory stimulation to better captivate the conscious mind. I concur that the debate is not one of semantics, rather the theory and concept behind the semantic trappings.


	dahalb Member Pilot Name: dahalb Faction: Solrain Joystick: None Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oz Posts: 410	Re: Game Realism In my mind, daslog hit the nail on the head. "Realism" in a game is about the suspension of disbelief. Games, by nature are never "real". They are projections of fantasy that are designed to give the participant a sense of joy. The "balance" of this lies in the relationships between the actions and consequences possible in the game construct. Getting back to your original point, "death" represents a consequence rather than actual death. The gravity of that consequence is what some would dispute as either too low or too high. IMO, when the arguments for and against are as evenly distributed as they are presently, then the "balance" is about right. On the RM count, can i just say, that bringing real life issues into what is supposed to be an enjoyable diversion from real life is not something i am for. The ability for some ppl to overpower or out spend someone because of their real world wealth is taking what should be a level playing field and skewing it massively in a single direction. This is not what a game should be based on.
		__________________ "A probable impossibility is preferable to a improbable possibility" -Aristotle "Easy to learn, Hard to master" - Unknown


	Istanbul Member Pilot Name: Istanbul Joystick: Logitech Extreme 3D Pro Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: WI Posts: 788	Re: Game Realism I do a lot of mining, but that's more cuz It's kind of relaxing than that I feel any sense of power over anything by doing so. My pilot is more or less just a normal everyday, college educated engineer from hyperial who flies oct space ships (and has a set of callsigns for the other factions too). I may have gone into PvPing more than I did if everytime there was a battle, f5 didn't flood with stupid namecalling and fingerpointing.
		__________________ Crash-Riding: Degrading Music One Hit At A Time- My Blog about musical things. Go here if you want to see what I think about musical things. Evil Laugh Hello Goblin Pathfinder! My name is Mophia! The personal blog. Go here for various wierd things, including announcements and special inside information about I:NJAC! Really Evil Laugh


	GrimGriz Highest Order Hypocrite Faction: non-aligned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Portland Posts: 2,650	Re: Game Realism He who controls the spice....


	ELPIRATA Moderator Pilot Name: ELPIRATA Faction: non-aligned Joystick: Saitek X45 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Carolina, PR Posts: 1,441	Re: Game Realism @dailatron: Well, as a miner I can tell you that we feel some pride on providing certain difficult to mine commodities. Being a good silicon provider that econ producers look for can be satisfying in our own sense. Being able to move 100,000u of commodities in one week can be satisfying for a hauler, as much depends on how much they appreciate that fact on their own. It has felt good to be the best Octavian miner in all the mining contests that Romulus organized in Jumpgate Classic, Im below par in terms of mining hardware (compared to both sols and quants - pre mining patch - the one that gave the banker more speed and such) therefore finishing 3rd in a contest is actually very good for a miner and an octavian. ELP


	Ambrosius Member Pilot Name: Ambrosius Faction: Quantar Joystick: MS FF2 Join Date: May 2004 Location: The Stone Temple Posts: 1,661	Re: Game Realism Books are not real; movies are not real; but part of the success of any entertainment medium is "willing suspension of disbelief." Properly done, you can create an alternate reality provided you do it properly and stay completely consistent. Istvan has talked about the balance between "gamist" and "simulationist" preferences any number of times.The whole piracy debate really goes back to the PoD "pirates" are not REALLY pirates, they're muggers. So the argument was (IMO) about reality there, not Jumpgate. It was (again, IMO) a Disneyfiied Jack Sparrow definition of pirate . . . which I disputed based on pirates from the "Golden Age of Piracy" (18th century).Lots of semantics going on there.Frankly, I'd personally love to see pilot death introduced (including clones that can be purchased at various levels at varying levels of absurd cost) -- with death/pod malfunction being a rare occurrence but not an impossibility.But it would be an incredibly poor move to implement this as my feelings on the subject are way outside the mainstream.
		__________________ -- Ambros.