[Liet]

Bring back the community feeling. I don't care how it's done, but it must be done.

Here's the surest way I know - Eliminate POSes. They did more damage to the community than matter farming. They hurt the community, and they hurt PvP.

Back in the day, there were only 15 stations, and this brought us together.

-We all stocked stations for communal use. We had a vested interest in protecting those who stocked the stations, usually our own faction mates. We interacted to ensure the stations were stocked, we went out and made money to pay the haulers, we escorted them, we organized to haul in materials ourselves. But we had to work together to do it. We felt like a team.

-We had to defend those stations. If someone tried to strip the station, we worked together to stop them. Reputations developed, and we communicated about strippers. Even though it was impossible to truly stop someone from stripping, we felt like a team.

-The stations were focal points. If you died, you ended up at Outpost and had a chat with an old friend from your sister squad who was about to go mining. He'd give you a tip on where the best Precious roids were in Dark Fork, and you'd owe him a favor. Maybe you'd die, and launch to find a friendly squad beating back an invasion fleet. You'd lend your support, and feel like you really helped out the team. Even if you just launched on the way back to a fight, you'd see pilots and feel a sense of community. You'd see a fleet on the way somewhere and have an emotional attachment, you'd think "wow, those guys are going to beat some ass, WOOOOO!". You'd see that people are actually out there doing something.

POSes ruined this community feeling. Now I rarely see anyone, and when I do, I get no impression of who they are or what they usually do. The main interaction with other pilots is purely voluntary, on the forums or on :chat. They launch from their POS, go mining or fluxing, dock at their POS, and log off. Bring back the focal stations. Let us see other pilots.

POSes also damaged PvP. VERY BADLY.

-They make griefing easy. If I wanted to, I could be the most unfun pirate ever. I could launch, civ, dock, log off, and repeat indefinitely. This is not fun, and players should not have such an easy way of hiding. I should have to deal with my actions, and maintain a good reputation if I ever want to be unmolested. This ties back in with community.

-They make PvP too pansyish. Want to be successful? Fly a MF, and if you ever drop to armor just FF to a POS and hide. Only launch if you can win a fight, and if you don't have overwhelming numbers just hide in your POS. This is exactly what some Germans did to us when we went to EU, and it was pathetic. Without POSes, they have no option but to fight or flee. No more "hahaha, our MFs killed you and safely FF speed-docked at our POS the second any of them were in danger. We are the winners!".

-They make PvP too Quake-like. I only have 10 deaths left before I'm out of Dreams. Launch, kill, kill, die, relaunch, kill, kill, die, relaunch, kill kill. There's no need to rendevouz with your fleet. There's no need to fly more than 2 minutes to get back to the fight. Boring.

Long post, and I'm sure there are reasons I'm missing.

Bring back the community, and let us police ourselves. It worked. It's what made Jumpgate great.

[Sephiroth]

I agree with everything you just said Liet!

[Hurricane]

The following is copied from my post on Jossh. There is no doubt that I agree with Liet.

I agree with Bronx that POS's did more damage than good. I've stated before in other threads at other times on other forums that POS's emptied the faction station of people and tore the little factional unity there was apart.

Before POS's, factional stations were the hub of activity. You could dock at wake and find 10-20 different pilots hanging out. Newb's found help easily, haulers found willing escorts, PvP pilots found haulers to hire for equipment all at the station. POS’s imho basically separated everyone, made space seem even emptier than it was, and things got boring fast. If you wanted to find help, you had to alt tab to see if there was anyone logged in. There was the up side that squads had unity in planning, building, stocking POS’s, but after that was accomplished what was left to do with them?

Stating again what I have posted before, I’d much rather see my factional station give me storage room for equipment, commodities, ships along with the ability to market specialty items like arties and have POS’s just be gone from the game. Replace POS’s with outpost’s that have R/R/R and that can be using in mining operations but are expensive, and take squad unity to upkeep, along with making them destructible and moveable. One of the most annoying things in the game at the moment is the amount of POS’s in EVERY sector I fly through that are all abandon empty pieces of Junk. Very few POS’s are still operated as a storage/ r/r/r / homing facility and most as used just as a place to dock and hide.

As a hauler, arriving at empty faction stations with not a pilot in sight just makes you wonder why suffer those heavy loads.

[Tritian]

I agree 100%

POS's were a great idea on paper but have caused severe damage to Jumpgate.

Another major problem that Liet touched on, but i'd like to ellaborate, is that PvP squads tend to build their POS's on the outskirts of their factions space. This causes things like the Dark Gateways/Greater Loches grinder that we currently have, where the sols and the octs are literally 1 sector appart, and all the fighting centers around the DG/GL gate.

LAME.

[Radi]

I agree mostly.

"...let us police ourselves." Sorry, that didn't work then. Will not work now. If we are going to have more players than we used to, as sure as hell will not.

[alphabet]

Totally 100% agree with everything you said Liet.

Hurricane, I remember when we were getting ganked so hard at The Wake, we called a cease fire so your guys could restock us. I launched and saw over a dozen tows in line, waiting to dock, all heavys with equipment for us to continue the fight. It was one of the most impressive things Ive ever seen in Jumpgate and I really got the feeling of community. Not only for hiring MACK, but for the opposition to let us call a cease fire because we were out of equipment.

Most of these guys on here were the opposition to me and my squad, but I loved to hate them. Without them Jumpgate would not have been fun or exciting for me.

I want those times and the closeness of this community back!

POSs crapped all over the factional gameplay. SN couldnt control our borders anymore and the community were never together anymore. Who cares about a faction station under attack when I can go hide in my personal POS.. f*kn lame!

[Dedsquirrl]

Originally Posted by Radi

I agree mostly.

"...let us police ourselves." Sorry, that didn't work then. Will not work now. If we are going to have more players than we used to, as sure as hell will not.

It worked pretty well.

A guy could get in a few civ rips.
But as soon as word got out, there was a factionalist squad out hunting him.

It would be so un-fun to remove all ability to civ rip.
There should be a sense of danger for every pilot in the game. It is what keeps you sharp and immersed in the game.

You are not supposed to be able to go take a crap while you are mining.
You are supposed to be circling that sucker, watching your radar, and screaming like crazy when a pirate shows up.

Haulers are not supposed to aim at a gate, engage throttle, and run to the fridge for a beer. They are supposed to be watching the radar looking for pirates jumping off of roids.

Granted, rippers of lowbies, miners, and haulers are a special kind of scum. But they are the scum that gives the game a dangerous gritty feel that makes it so fun.

Some sort of AI support (minor to be sure) for civs under attack in a "friendly" sector would be about the extent I would like to see.
And even then, it should not be enough to make it impossible for the ripper. Just more difficult.

I wasn't a civ ripper. The only perm bounty I ever got was when I accidentally attacked and killed Russian when I was Civ and he was HG.
But I love the danger that they add to the game.
It was fun to know that my SN tags made every hauling/mining mission dangerous.

So in summation, I disagree whole-heartedly.
Maybe it got worse when the hard-core factionalists PvPers started to leave.
But when they were active, it was more dangerous to be a civ-ripper than a civ.

Killing a MACK tow was a good way to get yourself chased all over the map.

[Liet]

Originally Posted by Hurricane

Stating again what I have posted before, I’d much rather see my factional station give me storage room for equipment, commodities, ships along with the ability to market specialty items like arties and have POS’s just be gone from the game. Replace POS’s with outpost’s that have R/R/R and that can be using in mining operations but are expensive, and take squad unity to upkeep, along with making them destructible and moveable. One of the most annoying things in the game at the moment is the amount of POS’s in EVERY sector I fly through that are all abandon empty pieces of Junk. Very few POS’s are still operated as a storage/ r/r/r / homing facility and most as used just as a place to dock and hide.

Wow. This is pure brilliance, Hurricane. I'd love to see this happen. I'd go even further, and make those R/R/R outposts stationary faction-run, requiring an FM or commods (or something!) to keep them operations. Force a 60-second dock to ensure they're not abused as PvP FF-speeddocking tools and we're golden on that front.

alphabet, I feel ya man. That had to be a great sight. Haulers stocking central stations was great, because the ones that hauled equipment became PvP targets, which encouraged support from the fighters, and all sorts of great backroom shady deals between haulers and enemy fighters. Opportunites for complex interaction.

Any of the more successful pirates would tell you that at times it was rough being a pirate sometimes, not because you were hunted, but because half the haulers in space you weren't allowed to touch because you had a secret deal with them, hahaha

[Radi]

Originally Posted by Dedsquirrl

It worked pretty well.

A guy could get in a few civ rips.
But as soon as word got out, there was a factionalist squad out hunting him.

It would be so un-fun to remove all ability to civ rip.
There should be a sense of danger for every pilot in the game. It is what keeps you sharp and immersed in the game.

You are not supposed to be able to go take a crap while you are mining.
You are supposed to be circling that sucker, watching your radar, and screaming like crazy when a pirate shows up.

Haulers are not supposed to aim at a gate, engage throttle, and run to the fridge for a beer. They are supposed to be watching the radar looking for pirates jumping off of roids.

Granted, rippers of lowbies, miners, and haulers are a special kind of scum. But they are the scum that gives the game a dangerous gritty feel that makes it so fun.

Some sort of AI support (minor to be sure) for civs under attack in a "friendly" sector would be about the extent I would like to see.
And even then, it should not be enough to make it impossible for the ripper. Just more difficult.

I wasn't a civ ripper. The only perm bounty I ever got was when I accidentally attacked and killed Russian when I was Civ and he was HG.
But I love the danger that they add to the game.
It was fun to know that my SN tags made every hauling/mining mission dangerous.

So in summation, I disagree whole-heartedly.
Maybe it got worse when the hard-core factionalists PvPers started to leave.
But when they were active, it was more dangerous to be a civ-ripper than a civ.

Killing a MACK tow was a good way to get yourself chased all over the map.

I'm not advocating safe zones in game. I think that civving is part of the game cuz you cannot hide if you piss off somebody. Makes pilots accountable no matter what.

Problem lies that if you really want to civ rip and be general a****** (especialy if you have skills), it is easy to do. Not knowing where he is going to hit, seconds accounts, POS'es etc.

Sorry, more often than not, it was hard to get revenge on the said pilot for civving.

Before help would arrive, you would be dead. Even in a faction space.

And factional squads could not hunt civ rippers 24/7.

Btw, sols did not have to worry about Rollio, LM, Power Rangers, or Borg. Quants had to.

[alphabet]

Any of the more successful pirates would tell you that at times it was rough being a pirate sometimes, not because you were hunted, but because half the haulers in space you weren't allowed to touch because you had a secret deal with them, hahaha

Thats what being a smart pirate was all about. Having the steady income from back alley deals. The dumb pirates wound up getting shot in the bunghole for their rips.

[Ikeprof]

Ya know...you guys who were the sworn enemy of OEC are really shattering your image of irrational and fanatical money grubbing religious heathens that needed to be put down in an almost merciful way.

Quit posting good memories, logical arguments and rational ideas!!!!!