[TheRag]

You have got to be kidding. That's it? That's the best you can come up with?

[dailatron]

Hmm while I agree that "safe areas" give jerks the ability to run and hide, thereby avoiding the consequences of their actions.

I also think (and this comes from experience) that not having safe areas gives jerks the ability to be jerks and run around killing people that cant defend them selfs.

I think a middle ground needs to be reached somehow. But it is good to be able to say: "ooh look theres me_1, Magnus kill that muppet".

[vorlon31]

There are ways around the jerk bolt hole notion, both before and after the jerk got involved.

1, if you were in the safe(r) areas in the first place, or chose a safer route, it (the jerk attack) wouldn't of happened. You know the risks of walking down darkened alleys at night jingling a pocket full of change and doing 'girly' dance steps - the same would apply for flying into the unsafe areas without contacts there and/or escorts.

2, Outside Mtags, coded revenge is cool. Once downed a player could have x hours of the perps active in-flight time to gain revenge on that other player - regardless of their location.

3, if the attack occurred in unreg rather than one of the lesser guarded sectors, then unreg rules apply - as in none. So your vengeance will depend on how far your patience or readiness to deal with the consequences.

stuff like that ^

[Pyrophred]

Originally Posted by TheRag

You have got to be kidding. That's it? That's the best you can come up with?

And your solution to this problem (and it WOULD be a problem) is.... ?

The only foolproof solution to this would be to make civs immune to fire from other ships. which would of course create a whole new set of headaches for the developers, and frankly IMHO isnt exactly a good idea in the first place.

[Injustice]

Jumpgate has "safe zones". They've had them for a long time, it's called regulated space. If you're sitting in the dark fork mining and see a bounty message for the gurge, then oct shore, then V hook, and you don't move, it's your fault when you get civ ripped.

No matter how you mold the argument, it still comes down to your guns versus his. You can say "I didn't get a bounty message". Your fault for not tuning the beacons so you get advanced warning. You can say "I was in a tow full of ore and couldn't get away". Your fault for overloading your ship to the point where you're a sitting duck. You can say "I was AFK".... I think that one's a little obvious.

The bottom line is you can't go about this like you think the game should conform 100% with how you feel it should be played. Despite a million arguments on the subject, it continues to be exactly what it has been since 2001, an MMO where you share the space lanes with everything from fluxers to haulers to factionalists to pirates. Often your interests will directly oppose those of somebody else. That's where risk comes into play.

[dailatron]

Originally Posted by Injustice

The bottom line is you can't go about this like you think the game should conform 100% with how you feel it should be played. Despite a million arguments on the subject, it continues to be exactly what it has been since 2001,

The bottom line is bums on seats, your nearly right it has been virtualy the same since 2001 and that could possibly be the problem. I dont understand the argument about not changing the way Jumpgate is played when there is obviously something amiss.

We need more players, thats the bottom line and dont forget it.

[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Injustice

Jumpgate has "safe zones". They've had them for a long time, it's called regulated space. If you're sitting in the dark fork mining and see a bounty message for the gurge, then oct shore, then V hook, and you don't move, it's your fault when you get civ ripped.

No matter how you mold the argument, it still comes down to your guns versus his. You can say "I didn't get a bounty message". Your fault for not tuning the beacons so you get advanced warning. You can say "I was in a tow full of ore and couldn't get away". Your fault for overloading your ship to the point where you're a sitting duck. You can say "I was AFK".... I think that one's a little obvious.

The bottom line is you can't go about this like you think the game should conform 100% with how you feel it should be played. Despite a million arguments on the subject, it continues to be exactly what it has been since 2001, an MMO where you share the space lanes with everything from fluxers to haulers to factionalists to pirates. Often your interests will directly oppose those of somebody else. That's where risk comes into play.

I think its time that you thought outside of the box really. The safer area idea rocks the notion that if a pilot chooses, he/she can shoot the hell out of anyone they like, anywhere they like and justify it by making it the person they shot's fault one way or another and then it puts the onus on the shot player to exact revenge.

Quite simply, that as a gaming principle hasn't worked in Jumpgate, in fact that ethos has had a major negative effect on the games population since the beginning.

Your biggest problem is scale, the fear over save zones comes from a small scale game, Jumpgate Evolution will (I hope) be huge (map size in comparison to Jumpgate Classic) and so there will be great swathes of space where that shoot or be shot ethos will hold true PLUS additional great swathes where it wont.

Making the new games mechanics an exact carbon copy of the old games mechanics, mechanics that have sent many players off to other games (which is true whether you like it or not) will lead Jumpgate Evolution down the exact same path as Jumpgate Classic took.

The galaxy has to be big enough and structured enough for all game styles or quite simply it wont be the big hit that Jumpgate deserves. Netdevil want more than just the returning prodigal sons for this game, they want as many people as they can manage and that means catering for as many play styles as possible, period.

The last word Netdevil will want to hear describing their new baby is niche

[Jump]

As the OP I'm thinking my whole original idea presented has been taken far beyond the concept it represented. Translation, it's been trashed.

I never mentioned safe zones. That's what I get for being lazy and throwing out a simple summary. The intent was for a more realistic representation of how a civilization would set itself up and attempt to maintain itself. Every civilization will protect it's heartland with ever increasing effort as you approach it. Naturally, that protection takes an ever increasing effort to maintain. Stop the effort and the protection erodes.

So a faction like Solrain should have a heartland that it strives to protect. A place where it's families are living and civilians are going about their daily lives. And Solrain should strive to protect this area, that is why they have a military force. And the civilians in this area strive to maintain the system that both protects them, and enables their protectors. What I am proposing is just to have civilizations, not anarchy. Most customers are just not going to pay for anarchy.

As with any society, when people are faced with a breakdown in their civilization and they are subject to torture, murder, looting, and rape, they leave. They become refugee's. And that is exactly what has happened to the three civilizations of Jumpgate TRI. There are many games filled with refugee's from the Jumpgate TRI civilizations. That's a plain and simple fact.

Now, do you want Jumpgate Evolution to have some depth? Or do you want a simple shooter? If you want a shooter then it should just have weapons and ammo and other items needed floating in space and you can grab and shoot and frag all day. But if you want it to have some depth and many more things to do and role play, then the anarchy needs to go.

Not safe zones, protected zones. A protection that has to be maintained by those protected or problems arise and trouble enters your heartland. A protection that will always have some exploitation and erosion at times. To me, this scenario offers far more role play and game play opportunity than Jumpgate has ever seen. For both PVP and economy minded players. And especially for those that dabble in both.

[Radi]

Sorry burst your bubble vorlon, but they already know it is niche game.

[Sephiroth]

I'm not a huge fan of safe zones or the sort, but I'd be okay with it given two conditions:

1. It were still possible to enter "safe zones" through other means than Jumpgates, or broken Jumpgates

2. The more important resources were located in areas that were outside of the "safe zones".

[alphabet]

Originally Posted by Jump

As the OP I'm thinking my whole original idea presented has been taken far beyond the concept it represented. Translation, it's been trashed.

I never mentioned safe zones. That's what I get for being lazy and throwing out a simple summary. The intent was for a more realistic representation of how a civilization would set itself up and attempt to maintain itself. Every civilization will protect it's heartland with ever increasing effort as you approach it. Naturally, that protection takes an ever increasing effort to maintain. Stop the effort and the protection erodes.

So a faction like Solrain should have a heartland that it strives to protect. A place where it's families are living and civilians are going about their daily lives. And Solrain should strive to protect this area, that is why they have a military force. And the civilians in this area strive to maintain the system that both protects them, and enables their protectors. What I am proposing is just to have civilizations, not anarchy. Most customers are just not going to pay for anarchy.

As with any society, when people are faced with a breakdown in their civilization and they are subject to torture, murder, looting, and rape, they leave. They become refugee's. And that is exactly what has happened to the three civilizations of Jumpgate TRI. There are many games filled with refugee's from the Jumpgate TRI civilizations. That's a plain and simple fact.

Now, do you want Jumpgate Evolution to have some depth? Or do you want a simple shooter? If you want a shooter then it should just have weapons and ammo and other items needed floating in space and you can grab and shoot and frag all day. But if you want it to have some depth and many more things to do and role play, then the anarchy needs to go.

Not safe zones, protected zones. A protection that has to be maintained by those protected or problems arise and trouble enters your heartland. A protection that will always have some exploitation and erosion at times. To me, this scenario offers far more role play and game play opportunity than Jumpgate has ever seen. For both PVP and economy minded players. And especially for those that dabble in both.

I hear what your saying and I agree 100%!

SN was always the military arm of Solrain. We enjoyed our jobs of protecting our haulers, miners and civilians. The problem was that the game mechanics didnt really allow us to be identified as the military for Solrain. We just had an HG tag and that was it.

It would be nice if each faction had a career path that you could follow, like military, merchant, engineer (crafter), explorer, etc. With maybe being able to choose a major and minor career choice.

The "safe" zone is the zone that is actively enforced by the military. If grievances occur in those areas, the rewards become very high for the military of that faction. This more or less entices the military to take care of its own.

Anyway, that would be cool if it was implemented.

[Injustice]

Just to reiterate, I'm all for this idea, my post was in relation to TheRag's rant about people quitting because they got civved. Although Jump's idea wasn't spawned as a solution to the safe zone/no safe zone argument, it is very pertinent to that issue.

A few factors to take into account in relation to Jump's idea are #1 multi-factional squads. Either haulers/fluxers, or even factionalist (i.e. SoLi/JITW) squads that enlist more than one faction would basically be forced to base out of fringe space if the "no pass for non-faction ships" rule was set in stone. Maybe have it set so that non-faction ships could enter if they powered down their ships guns or had none equipped, or a pilot could declare his/her factional allignment other than native, with a cool-down timer to keep people honest (say 24 hours to take effect, 72 hours before it can be changed again).

And #2 being the huge impact such a zone would have on PvP in unreg. A simple solution to that would be to temp flag PvPers for, say, 5 minutes after a PvP altercation, during which time they can't enter faction space. The temp flag would be one-directional, meaning a pirate or random griefer couldn't exploit the timer by tagging a passing hauler to keep said hauler from using factional jumpgates. The flag would apply to someone taking action, not recieving it.

[daslog]

The bottom line:

No Safe zones = Newbies getting killed = Newbies quitting = No New players

Safezones = Newbies not geting killed = More newbies playing = more players.

Hopefully, people remember me as a hardcore PvPer. I can understand Erasor's point of view completely. But I also understand that we can't drive new players away.

The solution is to put more stuff do in in Unreg, so people go there. For example, Player owned stations should ONLY be allowed in Unreg space. That would give players an incentive to be there more.

[Jump]

With my idea I was thinking that people will enter into danger as a choice, and we all know they will. And also, they will be faced with limits if they don't make that choice.

Preferably I wouldn't want gates that keep them out. Just big honking gun stations on the inside that shoot them in a shock and awe manor if they don't turn back. Lot's of new tactics will come out of that.

This of course leaves the ability for this system to break down. Faction missions to repair these gun stations. Certain needed components (not all) for such repair NOT conveniently located in that core civilization zone, etc.

Plus I think with NetDevil's destructive environment technology they developed for AA we need to look at far more options for this than just comparing to what is. I could see raids to blow out these weapons, or die trying. Lot's of increased game play and role play that's for sure.

Meanwhile, players new to the game or the genre can have some more time to acclimate and most of them will eventually get to the point where the risky adventures will become more appealing as they get more confident in their abilities in Jumpgate Evolution.