[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Algore

Is your definition of a "fair fight" purely "equal numbers" on opposing sides then?

In the spirit of what Jumpgate is supposed to be, yes. An equal number of pilots in equally balanced ships. Let the outcome be decided by quality, not quantity.

[Wild_Bill]

Like I said in my post, let the Devs put it in Beta, then it can be tried and judged more fairly. Just because it worked in WoW does't mean it will work in Jumpgate. Then again, it might turn out to be something wonderful.

What I am curious about, based on what has been said since my last post, is the nature of the difference between Sim and Instance? Other than the limitations on entry (equal numbers), what else is different?

[Rebound]

Originally Posted by vorlon31

Too much past tense. Without meaning to be harsh on Jumpgate Classic, that "world pvp" feature just didn't work did it. I mean, flying from wake to Quant core nowdays, via OP and staying on the popular routes, I'm not exactly having to queue at the jumpgates to get through. Nostalgia is great but to keep things in perspective Jumpgate Evolution needs to look at what works for the huge games, give it that Jumpgate twist, pick it up and run with it.

I happen to believe that the "world pvp" feature worked quite well - back in the day. That model no longer exists, and therefore a comparison to today's activity is short-sided. The reasons for the server's change in activity are vast, highly speculative, and quite varying among players; suffice it to say that the conditions today are different than three or more years ago.

I reiterate my opinion that instances would not be a good addition to Jumpgate Evolution

[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Like I said in my post, let the Devs put it in Beta, then it can be tried and judged more fairly. Just because it worked in WoW does't mean it will work in Jumpgate. Then again, it might turn out to be something wonderful.

What I am curious about, based on what has been said since my last post, is the nature of the difference between Sim and Instance? Other than the limitations on entry (equal numbers), what else is different?

The difference is that there really are no limitations. The nature and goals of a specific battleground can be whatever the devs want it to be. in WoW, each battleground had a specific goal in mind. Mostly these goals followed the classic templates like King of the Hill, CTF, and Deathmatch.

So it could be as simple as you and your wingman launching from one station and me, with my wingman, launching from another. The team with the last man standing wins. You could bump that up from a standard 2v2 match to 4v4, 40v40, or 2v2v2v2.

Aside from the number of pilots involved, the environment itself can be whatever the devs choose. A simple open sector with a station and a non-functional gate, like the current sim, all the way up to a huge battlefield of epic proportions, complete with huge menacing cap ships that you can attack, pilot yourself, and dock with.

[ND_Istvan]

In the hopes of making this discussion a little less opaque to people unfamiliar with instancing, let me add some additional background, elaborating on or summarizing some comments by several folks above:

Instancing generally means a "private" (to some degree) subsection of game environment.

The comments about "equal numbers" are based on the concept of an "arena", which is sort of instanced by definition. The simulators in Jumpgate are different from the normal concept of an arena, because the Jumpgate sims are global, available to anyone and everyone, all the time. This actually makes them pretty rotten for contest-based events (or contests available all the time for whoever wants to duel), while a real arena of some kind would probably be very useful for routine contests and tournament-type activities.

There's an exception to our global simulator sectors in Jumpgate. No one can join you if you go into the conflux sim. The conflux sim is, effectively, instanced on the individual level (rather than on some kind of team level, like an "arena" might be). This is a pretty primitive form of instancing, but it's the closest thing Jumpgate Classic has.

The comments about "instancing a sector" are more accurate in terms of the usual definition of instancing, but the objections miss a key point. Usually in an instanced game, if the population grows too large for rendering all the players in the area, a new instance of the area is created and additional players simply load the new, emptier instance instead of the original. All the nonplayer content is identical. In many games, the towns, which are usually really crowded places, get instanced to eliminate lag from the play experience. Note that this kind of instancing is usually meant specifically for dealing with large populations. YOU don't create another instance by choice: the servers do it when the population in a place gets too large. The client load is then spread across independent instances of that place. Jumpgate has never had that kind of problem, for reasons that should be obvious to everyone.

Guild Wars is a game that reverses this load-handling approach: the "towns" are held in common as assembly areas for everyone, and every group that ventures outside a town is in their own instance of that area of the game world. This is simply a different application of instancing, with a different purpose. Guild Wars probably uses the normal kind of instancing to deal with town overcrowding, too, or lag due to trying to render all the players would make the town impossible to walk around in, or at least mighty annoying to people without uber video cards.

Also commonplace is instancing for specific content areas, such as for a dungeon raid. Your group has a private version of the dungeon, where you won't be interfered with by other groups - it's you and your pals versus the dungeon, no other factors. When you leave, the instance you were in vanishes. Note that the "effects" if any, of your adventure in there also vanish, because every dungeon is thus a temporary environment.

Hope this helps out, though its possible the discussion was beating itself into the ground already.

[Lordopic]

Originally Posted by ND_Istvan

though its possible the discussion was beating itself into the ground already.

Thats never stopped a thread from going on and on and on..

As for the topic, still trying to work out if i like it or not.

[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Lordopic

Thats never stopped a thread from going on and on and on..

Which reminds me, I haven't said UN-NERF the damned tow in a while

[Wild_Bill]

Thanks ND_Istvan. I now have a better idea of what an "instance" is and I can see where it would work, at least to a certain extent in Jumpgate. Instances would be mostly useful, IMO, for events set up or controlled by GM/EP or as a dueling arena with or without GM/EP involvement. Unless Jumpgate Evolution is more wildly successful than most of us here dreams, I can't really see instances being of that much bearing on Jumpgate Evolution. Then again, the problem may be my own lack of imagination.

The most ships in one sector are almost always some form of battle, at least since Farming was taken out of the game (sidelong glance and grin). Even the biggest group mining adventure I was involved in was no more than maybe half a dozen ships. Fluxing swarms would be almost as crowded as battles; or else major Senitent activity. Nothing that seemed to strain even the old servers.

Oh well, like I've said for the 3rd time now, haul it out, let us play with it, and then we can all make an informed, educated decision as to whether it's something we do or do not wish in the new Jumpgate Evolution.

[ELPIRATA]

acute inferiority complex and their ego can't take that kind of abuse

Do you have to offend people or is that you can't use logical and respectful comments? Its not an inferiority complex, is a humble way of seeing yourself compared to those that have fought countless battles and have survived countless fights even outnumbered. You are kinda like a god I guess, but in small case because you're not.

Grow up.

Me and JP is a plain example of how unbalanced a 2 on 2 fight can be. If you need to make offending remarks.. go talk with a counsel or with your family or whoever you talk.

ELP

[Radi]

Originally Posted by Injustice

The difference is that there really are no limitations. The nature and goals of a specific battleground can be whatever the devs want it to be. in WoW, each battleground had a specific goal in mind. Mostly these goals followed the classic templates like King of the Hill, CTF, and Deathmatch.

So it could be as simple as you and your wingman launching from one station and me, with my wingman, launching from another. The team with the last man standing wins. You could bump that up from a standard 2v2 match to 4v4, 40v40, or 2v2v2v2.

Aside from the number of pilots involved, the environment itself can be whatever the devs choose. A simple open sector with a station and a non-functional gate, like the current sim, all the way up to a huge battlefield of epic proportions, complete with huge menacing cap ships that you can attack, pilot yourself, and dock with.

Yes, battlegrounds are more controllable environments. It might works for WoW, but not for Jumpgate. Well, maybe in some simple cases like some kind of tournament or event.

But predictable = boring.

I cannot count how many times I was looking for a fight and got more than I could chew. But it also works the other way around too.

Jumpgate is all about battles with unknown variables. It is not even about balance since you cannot balance skill of every individual pilot.

I still remember when I was hunting Viper2c, and he actually set up a trap. It was awesome. That simple unknown did alot to add to my and his gameplay. He was able to get a jump on me, and I got something unexpected.

I agree with Wild_Bill. Let's test it first and then judge.


P.S. Am I the only one that is concerned that there are more and more WoW elements in Jumpgate Evolution?

[Tim]

Nah... of course there are WOW elements in Jumpgate. They have a lot in common.

It seems like we spend so much time making sure the Jumpgate is Totally Different(tm) that we forget to appreciate the ways Jumpgate can be similar to other popular, successful games.