[SingleShot]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

Imagine if the FF took 5 seconds of cap charge or AB fuel before it started working. If you had to sacrifice shields, guns or AB before, during and/or after using the FF... would you you use it?

Under constraints like that, FFs would become more defensive than ever.

ie, FFing away from someone would be effective. Maybe gimped a little, but largely the same. Chasing someone to kill them with a FF, or FF circling in a fight, on the other hand, would probably be pretty ineffective.

And the docking modx was good at stopping a tow the one time it needed stopping. Don't look at me to back that, up, I flew 6FF/Camera or 7FF all the time. I used the docking modx once, ever. It scared me in ways that uberdocking (ie, 2k away from the station heading backwards towards the tube at V600) never did.



I'd guess I'd associate the FF (or anything like it) with 3 main effects -

- It limited combat endurance. For example, a group A fights group B. Even if group A wins, the expenditure of resources means that if group B re-launches or group C comes by, group A is highly unlikely to win another fight. AB, spam, and armor factor into this too, but nothing at all like FFs.

- Allowed weak fast ships to temporarily be able to go toe to toe with big heavy ships, and big heavy ships to be temporarily able to run down weak fast ships.

- Made catching much faster ships easier by running them out of resources with a supply of fresh ships.

Whether or not these are "good" or "bad" effects is of course up to debate. I'm not going to comment, being a skill-less lame FF whore noob and all. Plus I don't design video games, just exploit them. Right Ambro?

[ND_Istvan]

Originally Posted by netburnrol

Istvan ... Your listening to us, and taking your great amount of experience from both inside Jumpgate Classic/Jumpgate Evolution, and behind the scenes and applying everything we are suggesting towards making Jumpgate Evolution the best it possibly can. For that, we thank you.

I'm extremely grateful for this support, but I feel that it's very important that I make the following disclaimer:

Though I'm on the Jumpgate Evolution team and providing unrelenting input based on my experiences running Jumpgate Classic, Draker and Scorch are leading design for the new game. They are reading these forums even more frequently than I am, and indeed taking some input from the community. However, there is tremendous, crucial insight in the comments others have been making on these forums, about how we have to look at Jumpgate Evolution as a new game, and about how NetDevil's commitment to making a product that will have broad appeal is going to characterize a lot of design decisions. I implore you not to be so quick to offer praise for what you perceive as the success of my efforts on your behalf.

I think Jumpgate Evolution is likely to be a great game in its own right, and I do think it cannot help but be a better commercial success than Jumpgate Classic was. I just want you all to realize that it's going to be different.

There were and are a lot of things that could have been done better with Jumpgate Classic. Lots of those things are being addressed in Jumpgate Evolution. I am very hopeful that most of you will think Jumpgate Evolution differs from Jumpgate Classic in good ways.

[Jump]

Uh oh, a disclaimer. Did someone get called to the front cubicle? j/k

I think most of us understand that it will be different. Whether we like the difference or not is yet to be seen. Most of us feel an affinity to you and Scott so we will give it a fair shot. Being that I spent so much time and money of this heap of a site I am obligated to give it more that a brief look I think.

Still, if it turns out to be some kind of Wow in space I would expect most of us will drift away and focus on other things. That's just a reality of the current player base. Most of us liked Jumpgate for what it was, when we played it for a few months, a few years, or as some, it's whole lifespan to this point. if Jumpgate Evolution is too far from it then it may or may not appeal to us.

[Karash]

In my experience, the FF was just a crutch that people relied on. It was pretty sad that no one would engage if they ran out of Flashfires. Remember the FF shortage? No one would have serious fights during that time.

[Hornet]

Isty, you and everyone else there are at least reading our suggestions...not many games will do that little bit. For that alone, you guys have earned a lot of respect from most of us.

I think as Jump said, as long as the heart of Jumpgate Classic playstyle is still there, Im sure Jumpgate Evolution will be a good one.

[SingleShot]

Originally Posted by Karash

In my experience, the FF was just a crutch that people relied on. It was pretty sad that no one would engage if they ran out of Flashfires.

Why fight if you have no hope of winning?

I wouldn't fight without a shield or guns, either. Are they crutches?

[Karash]

SS, I guess it was a product of flying Octavian so much. You got into the fight, and there was no chance of you 'escaping'. I am not saying weak PVP'ers used FFs as a crutch, because I used them all the time. What I am saying is I clearly remember no one wanting to fight when there was a FF shortage (US Server). Most of the Octs would still try to fight, but if they came up against a squad that had stockpiled Flashfires they would get slaughtered (more than usual).

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that Flashfires were broken as far as game design goes...at least I hope.

[SingleShot]

Lots of people "tried" to fight during the FF shortage. And it was hard because the results were often profoundly unfair. But no less unfair than if people were missing things like guns or shields. Plus the consequences of death were high. If you only had 30FFs in your locker that was ~10 death's worth. If you really don't want to die you're going to be very picky and choosy about when you fight.

Obviously an Oct wouldn't like FFs. 2 FF vs 4 FF isn't very fair, all other things being equal. But that starts to relate to ship balance and I'm trying to think about them in a more general sense.


edit: The "POS wars" of recent memory to me demonstrate how FFs can really break the game.

[Hornet]

Ya know, I've heard this FF debate go on for ages...and have yet to find a reason to side with A or B. Regardless, I think there needs to be some sort of a turbo built into the game, even if only heavy tows/freighters can use them.

[Tritian]

Istvan, Jumpgate Classic is a game that appeals to people of very different play-styles. Half of us can barely tolerate the other half, but we all love Jumpgate. =)

You wont be able to please everyone, but atleast you guys put forth effort and try to keep your community engaged. I know that a big part of me sticking it thru Jumpgate's original beta was that you guys listened and participated on the old NetDevil forums (well, maybe not you specifically Istvan, since you came later, but Scorch, Digitus, Iceman, etc)

Anyway, Keep up the good work! And fix the MT system! =P

[netburnr]

Originally Posted by ND_Istvan

Though I'm on the Jumpgate Evolution team and providing unrelenting input based on my experiences running Jumpgate Classic, Draker and Scorch are leading design for the new game. They are reading these forums even more frequently than I am, and indeed taking some input from the community.

Ist, this is what I'm praising you for. You are taking the time to read input from the current playerbase, and taking that to the design team. And the design team is doing the same as you said, watching, listening, and learning what people want from the game from the first development of the game instead of waiting until Beta and then listening only to those "hand picked" pilots.

Its ND's game, you guys make the decision on what does and does not get put into the game, but the fact that all of you are listening and even posting up here is what deserves the praise.

Originally Posted by ND_Istvan

There were and are a lot of things that could have been done better with Jumpgate Classic.

If I'm right, you are the one that is currently working on Classic? Or has development on classic completely stopped? If you guys are still working on it, then you still have plenty of time to fix the major problems that are coming up over and over and over (hint: complete the MT system and take some of the tweaks we suggested, and of coarse the Tow nerf)

Either way, we still love you

Originally Posted by Jump

I think most of us understand that it will be different. Whether we like the difference or not is yet to be seen. Most of us feel an affinity to you and Scott so we will give it a fair shot.
....
Still, if it turns out to be some kind of Wow in space I would expect most of us will drift away and focus on other things. That's just a reality of the current player base. Most of us liked Jumpgate for

Originally Posted by Hornet

Isty, you and everyone else there are at least reading our suggestions...not many games will do that little bit. For that alone, you guys have earned a lot of respect from most of us.

I think as Jump said, as long as the heart of Jumpgate Classic playstyle is still there, Im sure Jumpgate Evolution will be a good one.

I'm with Jump and Hornet as well. We are all here giving you guys another chance to wow us again. I know I was very satisfied with Jumpgate Classic in its hayday, and the only major problems I have these days are lack of players left due to the many nerfs that pushed most of them away. I think most of the problem with Jumpgate Classic was just lack of updates/support/size of the dev team (I mean one person to keep up with the game......)

If there is the same skill based PvP, with equal or more depth as far as RP and other fun stuff to do in the game, I think just about all of us will love Jumpgate Evolution.

Originally Posted by Karash

In my experience, the FF was just a crutch that people relied on. It was pretty sad that no one would engage if they ran out of Flashfires. Remember the FF shortage? No one would have serious fights during that time.

Originally Posted by SingleShot

Why fight if you have no hope of winning?

I wouldn't fight without a shield or guns, either. Are they crutches?

Think of it this way. If you start the game without the FF, are you going to miss it? Sure the flashfire shortage screwed certain people that were not able to stock pile them before hand. Sure it gave the people with POS and 2nd account mule storage an advantage, but overall it wasn't that bad. I know I was still out there everyday fighting. I actually liked that some of the FFleeeers weren't able to run away anymore.