[Tim]

You can't dock at a hostile faction because you are a warrior for a faction that is hostile to them. Why _would_ they let you dock? You are a bad guy.. how does it make sense to allow warriors from a hostile faction to dock?

And take a deep breath on the length-of-mission thing. You are an oct, as I recall, so take curiour missions from GP to oct depot. You'll be fine.

Also, as far as 'never being able to shoot anybody because they were all oct'.. you can shoot them, you'll just get a demerit. But since you didn't seem to have a problem with civ-ripping penalties (you suggested it as a course of action earlier in your post), I wouldn't think the demerit penalties would give you much heart burn either.

[netburnr]

Like I said, I havn't tried curiour missions yet, I'll give it a run tonight. Sounds kind of like the ol' transport mission. But on the topic of of the mission I took last night, sadly I can't remember the name of it right now, it wanted me to go pick up something and bring it back to oct space. The options were Hyp and Sol Core. Seriously, Hyp, come on thats like an hour trip alone, and that was the lower of the two. The missions need to start off with a low reward, low time sink, and work their way up, not start with the longest distance and work their way down. Granted, in a populated server it would probably be harder to get to sol and back as a MT, but that just didn't sit right. Also, how come none of the missions are based out of unreg?

What is this whole demerit thing about? Loss or PR rating? Bounty?

And I didn't have many problem(s) with the old Civ Rip system, but from what I understand it has gotten much much worse now. Sadly I doubt I'll be testing this new bounty system as netburnr is my "good" character.

[Tritian]

the demerit penalties are pretty lame by themselves. if you have 2 demerits, you only get 1pr point for each mission you do, and in order to clear the demerits you have to have more then 100+ pr. And each demerit comes with it's own PR penalties.

Oh and Al, take your head out of your ass. I like how you didn't respond to any of our valid complaints about the system, and call everyone a n00b for not understanding this way-too-complex and undocumented system.

I've been dealing with the MT system for almost a year now, and while it's true there are still some aspects I dont get (which in itself shows how badly it's implemented), I do understand the basics.

You are an Oct, and thus you have never in the last year needed to deal with the war meter issue since Octs are always at war. I bet if Oct was 'allied' with Sol, you'd go ballistic. Suddenly, I doubt you'd feel so highly about this MT system.

Open your eyes, stop calling everyone a n00b who disagrees with you, and try actually defending your stance instead of just accusing everyone of being too feeble minded to understand your superior logic.

Once again I ask you, What is so great about the MT system? The civ-switch thing was a valid point, but that is a very small aspect of the system that is also broken in my opinion.

[netburnr]

Thank you Tritian for helping me understand this new system. I see what you mean by this stuff not being documented

I just looked through the fixes.txt and Jumpgate(TM) - Flight Academy:Military

Neither of which gives any detail at all as to the "harsh penalties". I don't know if its because of lack of time or because everything is still being implemented, but this is really bad.

What I can understand is, that I am only allowed to shoot other MT pilots that are at war with me.

When you have all of 3 online pilots that are MT, and 2 are oct, this is just plain silly. There are not enough people to support this system in Jumpgate Classic's current state.

I can see why the PvPers are so upset now....

Silly question, why was HG removed completely? I don't understand why MT wasn't just added, instead of replacing HG.

[Tritian]

net, the new civrip thing is insane in itself.

if you are MT, you just get a demerit if you civrip someone. Two civrips will get you -pr and a bounty.

If you are anything but MT, you instantly get -120pr

If you have less then 0 pr, every mission you complete gives you 1 pr point, even if you have no demerits. So working off your bounty thru missions is pretty much impossible now.

The only way to truely work off your bounty is to get yourself killed a whole bunch of times. But the higher PR you have, the less dying helps you. So it might take 4 or 5 deaths to to get you around -30pr from -120pr, but it'd probably take you another 5 deaths to get to 0 from there. So the best way is to get to -30 by allowing yourself to die a few times (hopefully to friends that pay you back) and do 30 transport missions from there. Oh joy.

The bounty penalties themselves are very harsh. For example, as a laser 'nix pilot after killing 1 civ as pirate tagged, you can expect to have a 20million credit bounty. If you die, that 20million comes out of your bank account. If you don't have 20mil, you're grounded. Game over. An ammo nix pilot's bounty would be closer to 28mil. A rangers bounty is about 11mil.

With those high bounties, You can expect to be downed a few times from pilots wanting to collect. Everyone starts shooting at you, even your own faction. Pretty much, if you get a bounty you can expect to go TRI-C out of frustration. You've lost the game.

I think the devs have absolutely no clue how long it takes to make 20million credits in todays economy. God forbid you die multiple times and loose more (which you WILL.)

[Anvil]

Well the pirate and civrip PR is a problem I agree, but the MT tag isn't as bad as everyone makes it sound.

To be honest MT is more realistic than HG (though I'd like to see both). The three factions are at war now as far as I know so Tritian's information about that is dated. I'm a quant and I'm at war with both Octs and Sol's. All 3 factions fight eachother without penalty.

MT system has military specific missions which not only give you something to do as a PvPer to make money but also instigate combat. Take any level 3 Patrol Mission as a MT tag and you'll see what I mean. As HG their was nothing to instigate warfare except for forum flaming which would lead to declaring war on one squad or another. This was confusing and childish.

I remember flying around and asking "Are we at war with them?" That kind of system is lame. Now when I fly around, if I see a Sol that is MT tagged I know what the hell to do.

The MT system is based on the game being Factional now as opposed to purely Squad driven. So attacking your own people would be kind of dumb from a RP perspective. Landing on enemies stations makes NO sense at all. Forcing "tours of duty" is much better than the instant Civ tagging.

In fact, now that I re-read the thread I notice that the main argument is that you can't Civrip anymore and you can't shoot your own faction anymore. Good! With the low numbers that Jumpgate Classic has right now the MT system provides better PvP opportunities than the HG system did. If the server was much fuller AND knowing who you were at war with was clearer via targeting computer then the HG system would be fine.

Doesn't it make anyone wonder why there are more squads than players in Jumpgate Classic? With the military patch ND decided to do PvPers a favor by making 3 giant "squads" and put them at war with each other. Now, when I log on their is almost always someone to go out and fight; that wasn't true hardly ever with the HG system. I see more PvPers on now than I ever did a year ago. The people who cry about the MT system as a whole are just hold-overs that can't adapt. TRUE it isn't perfect but going back to HG will kill PvP now IMO.

Anvil

[SingleShot]

MT being "realistic" does not equal MT being enjoyable.

[GrimGriz]

I love the MT system, mainly because the civ rippers hate it. I was really looking forward to the second half though, and it sucks we didn't get to see it. It does have issues though. For the most part, the missions are lame and meaningless. They accomplish virtually nothing, though I really like procurement missions...save that you can't do them when you're at war, which would be really interesting.

[Anvil]

Originally Posted by SingleShot

MT being "realistic" does not equal MT being enjoyable.

Does to me. While I don't think MT is perfect I can say I NEVER liked HG.

Anvil

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Anvil

Tohttp://joystickrequired.com/forums/f101/
Jumpgate Evolution Forums be honest MT is more realistic than HG (though I'd like to see both). The three factions are at war now as far as I know so Tritian's information about that is dated. I'm a quant and I'm at war with both Octs and Sol's. All 3 factions fight eachother without penalty.

Yes, as of like, 1 month ago. And for how long? During the last year, the quants have been at peace almost continously, with 1 or 2 very brief periods of war in between. For those that dont get it, that means the quants and sols have been completely unable to have consensual PvP with each other except in unreg for the better part of the last year.

Originally Posted by Anvil

MT system has military specific missions which not only give you something to do as a PvPer to make money but also instigate combat. Take any level 3 Patrol Mission as a MT tag and you'll see what I mean. As HG their was nothing to instigate warfare except for forum flaming which would lead to declaring war on one squad or another. This was confusing and childish.

Umm, I disagree. The forums were a valuable tool for RP, and RP was the primary cause of squad warfare. Perhaps some individuals attacked others OOC, but that type of behavior has always been discouraged. I'd say 90% of squad combat was due to RP reasons.

The fact that you say it was all due to childish bickering on the forum, along with a quick look at your pilot record which shows zero kills, proves to me that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

The military missions are much better then what we had previously... which was nothing. But still, they are extremely lacking. Monetarily, they do not provide near enough money to keep a PvP'er who actually engages in PvP (not you) equiped.

Originally Posted by Anvil

In fact, now that I re-read the thread I notice that the main argument is that you can't Civrip anymore and you can't shoot your own faction anymore. Good!

What?! Maybe you need to re-read the thread again.

My main gripe is with the tie in with the war meter. Currently, the factions might be at war, but this is a relatively new development. for the majority of the last year, 1/3rd of the population couldn't engage in CONSENSUAL PVP with another third of the population without harsh penalties. That's ridiculous.

And what if Quant was at peace with Oct and Sol (according to the war meter), then the Quants wouldn't be able to engage in ANY consensual PvP unless it occurred in Unreg, or unless the Quant factionalists flipped to pirate tags and incurred those PR penalties.

Originally Posted by Anvil

Doesn't it make anyone wonder why there are more squads than players in Jumpgate Classic? With the military patch ND decided to do PvPers a favor by making 3 giant "squads" and put them at war with each other. Now, when I log on their is almost always someone to go out and fight; that wasn't true hardly ever with the HG system. I see more PvPers on now than I ever did a year ago. The people who cry about the MT system as a whole are just hold-overs that can't adapt. TRUE it isn't perfect but going back to HG will kill PvP now IMO.

"IMO"....

Lets examine what your opinion is worth. You dont PvP, and you have no clue what you are talking about. IMO, you shouldn't pretend to be knowledgeable about things you have virtually zero experience with.

Lets hear from people who actually PvP. I'd be curious to hear what the Quant and Sol PvP'ers have to say.

[GrimGriz]

I say don't judge the MT system because it's incomplete. Netdevil shouldn't have left Jumpgate in the state they left it in, but they did. Unless I'm mistaken though, pirate tagged peeps can kill mil peeps with little to no penalty, just losing like maybe 10k for dying for the temp bounty that comes with rat tags. So long as you lure any civilians that are messing with you into unreg before you rip them, it's not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.