[Algore]

Originally Posted by Jump

Well, when the majority of people that actually PVP don't like it, stop playing, and want change, then there is obviously a problem. That's about as simplistic as it gets. It really doesn't matter what us old cargo hauling/flux hunting types think. We are qualified to gripe about the tow nerf though.

I'd say the majority do not like aspects of the MT system and this is due to only partial implementation of the system.
Inj and Liet etc. quit before the MT patch and when they tried it did not like it due to not being able to play the game the way they used to. I played constantly and did not like the initial changes. The difference is I rarely shot at those before the patch that would result in me being penalised more severly as a result after the patch. I personally don't see the need for tags, but there are those who need a level of protection. The problem currently is that the deterrent(bounties, demerits, pirate tags) in place to act as protection are too severe.
I shoot stuff, but I always play other aspects of the game in my only account. Although I might not feel I need any third party protection(AI drones etc) I'm not so ignorant to think and accept that others do want, and need it.
The current balance does not work though.

Regards
Al

[Anvil]

I see a trend in the dichotomy of Jumpgate players. Some of us prefer a backdrop of realism in the game and others want it to be more like an arcade game. That's fine but it creates a completely different basis for arguing our preferences.

Like I said before, I only recently got involved with PvP. I tried under the HG system before but without belonging to an aggressive squad and memorizing all the squads your at war with it proved to be a cumbersome system. Some people liked it. That's fine. I didn't, so I chose to wait till the MT system came out.

I started PvPing heavily a few weeks ago and received a couple dozen deaths in just the last 2 weeks (and still made money the whole time). I haven't made a kill yet. So what? I've flown with other wingman, flown on my own, been involved in bait tactics, gotten better at evasion, and am developing at my flying skills. I'm new at PvP. I admitted that from the beginning. But being new at something doesn't inherently indicate a lack of understanding. I understand the MT system and the way IR and payouts work. It's not that complicated. In fact the whole PvP system in Jumpgate Classic is pretty simple. Some people like to make it seem mystic and complicated, but it's not.

Argue why MT is bad, but if someone points out something good about the MT system don't get all bent out of shape. I will repeat what I have said before, MT isn't perfect. I, like others, would like to see what the MT patch 2 was suppose to bring us before just asking for a reversion to the old system.

PS- As a side note I played for about a year under the HG system and I see more PvPers on now than I did during that year. Perhaps it's just a timezone thing but I doubt it.

Anvil

[SingleShot]

Originally Posted by Algore

I'd say the majority do not like aspects of the MT system and this is due to only partial implementation of the system.
Inj and Liet etc. quit before the MT patch and when they tried it did not like it due to not being able to play the game the way they used to.

I think it's worth separating, to some degree, the MT system and the current civ killing penalties system. It's true that the latter debuted with the former but I don't think it's really necessary to link them. Both could largely be changed without horrible things happening to the other.

I have to say as well, I'm pretty sure the "other half" of the MT system, whatever it was going to be, would not solve all my grievances with the MT system (such as being locked out of another faction's space). But that's just me.

[Tritian]

Anvil, I do not mind new players getting into PvP. We were all new once, and I have personally spent countless hours in the sim training new people.

The problem is not that you are new. The problem is that you are saying things which are wrong.

Also, you seem to have a lack of understanding of just how obfuscated the MT system is. I could create several 'What If' situations for you regarding the obscure rules of the MT system and I bet you'd get a majority of them wrong.

Take this example:

You're an Oct and Octs are at war with Sol. You flip MT and take a mission to kill Sols. You also grab a BCU. While flipping in Sol space, you get attacked by a civilian. He lands the first shot, but you manage to kill him.

What are the results for the Civilian? What are the results for You?

Results:
Civ: gets nothing. No temp bounties, no demerits.
You: get a demerit for defending yourself against a civ attacking you. You're PR in Sol is massively dropped (perhaps 0 or 30pr, i forget which), and your home faction PR drops from whatever it was to 70. Now every mission you do only gives you 2 pr points.

Sound fair?

I could go on and on. Suffice it to say, your views that the MT system is simplistic show that you really have no idea how the MT system works. I've been dealing with it on-and-off since it was implemented, and I still have no clue what would happen if say, a civilian killed another civilian from a warring faction (i think their PR would be reduced to -120 and they'd be flipped pirate tags, but i'm unsure), or if a MT killed a fellow MT from the same faction. (maybe a demerit???)

[ELPIRATA]

Im not sure if I should pages 2 to 4 since basically all I see is 'net' complaining a lot LOL

Net.. ur the enemy. (<< that small thing is a period).

Enemies are not welcome to the other's Stations. In fact, why have 100PR with that faction if all you do is kill them? That's what doesnt make sense to me.

Anyways, as Al said, its far from perfect, but it was a nice change and one I helped many understand the much I did. It seems, also, kind of ilogic to criticize something when you werent there when it was implemented.

The main problem with the war-meter is that is balanced with them civ actions. As many do their chores, they tend to balance out whatever aggresions (while I was there at least) others made sporadically. Leaving beacons flipped should help you alleviate some of that, but aggresions must occur so that it affects it either way.

In a perfect world... I would discourage others from making (and completing) missions for the enemy. Is not that easy of course.

BTW, I envy you, at least you can play, whereas Im stuck waiting for a DARN credit card.... oh boy.

ELP

[Wild_Bill]

Tritian, as little as I like your character's preferred play-style, you have made some solid and valid points regarding the fubar aspects of the current MT. Having said that, MT does have a few positive aspects for the majority of players. It does allow MT's to actually make a profit (or pay their bills anyway) fighting for their faction, which is a step up from the HG. It does put a stop to the lame civ-switch that was too popular with a few folks by requiring a minimum amount of dedication. Remeber what it was like when you could change your HG to Civ tags at ANY faction station? Then they made it home faction station, but it was still too easy. Like HG, MT allows you to attack other MT without penalties. Unlike HG, MT won't allow attacks on "allies". I'm not conversant with all the "privleges" or "penalties" that go with Pirate tags, so I'll avoid what I dont' know.

Anvil is correct when he says combat under the HG system was mostly forum driven. Remembering who your squad was at war with could be confusing. I remember that from when OAS was a major PvP squad. Got my butt shot off several times by folks I thought we were friendly with. Passed up some cheap kills too because I forgot some folks were our enemies. The MT system is pretty simple. You're either at war with a faction or you're not. If you are at War, then you're "guns free" on any of the opposing MT pilots. Not at War, then you don't shoot at them. Dead simple. Any idiot can remember that.

I've actually flown a couple of MT tours. My lack of kill stats (all pre-MT) is a reflection of my abilities, not my desires. Do my "death" stats give me higher status as a loser, if not a victim? Never mind . You and others, notably the pirate-tagged, have suffered under the current MT system. No doubt or argument there. Your unwillingness to change your playstyle to what is acceptible (by game mechanics anyway) has doomed you and your cohorts to having to play through second accounts or sit on the sidelines. Anvil hasn't suffered and neither have I for that matter (although I got a half a dozen deaths out of it). Algore does plenty of fighting under the current MT system, but as you pointed out he's an Oct and everyone is at war with Octavia!

There are problems with the current MT vs HG system. I won't argue you that one. I do wish GM_Istvan had received the chance to complete the patches on MT in Jumpgate Classic that he intended because I think the current game would be much more rounded than it is. Short of those patches being made I see no solution to our current problems.

[Anvil]

Originally Posted by Tritian

Also, you seem to have a lack of understanding of just how obfuscated the MT system is.

I don't recall saying the system was perfect. In fact I do recall saying the MT system was not perfect and probably needs patch 2 to clean it up.

Originally Posted by Tritian

I could go on and on. Suffice it to say, your views that the MT system is simplistic show that you really have no idea how the MT system works.

At its core it IS simple. There are some situations that are not clearly defined but as a MT you are going to be fighting other MT way more often than defending yourself from a civilian. Clear documentation and corrections of some penalties are definitely needed but when it comes down to "who do I shoot?" the MT system is more obvious than the HG system ever was. Others have expressed this exact point.

Anvil

[Tritian]

There's an easy solution to all of this.

Just re-add the HG tag under the name 'Un-aligned' alongside the MT and Pirate tags we have now. That way, people who dont want their RP limited by factions ideals can choose to be 'Un-aligned' and engage in consensual combat whenever they wish with other MT and Pirate tagged people.

You could put a minimum time limit on the Un-aligned tag also, so that if you dont want to be un-aligned anymore, you must wait a couple of hours before you can switch back.

[Tritian]

the above does nothing to help the bounty system, which needs to be completely redone.

Fortunately, I have a thread about that aswell.

HERE.

[Eraser55]

OMG this thread is going in a circle. Some people like MT and some like HG.

Why?.. well MT is kind of more secure tag then HG. You know who your enemies and allies are and players only decide if there is war or not, nothing much else..

HG, is like a privateer/freelancer tag. You could shoot down any other HG. HG system allowed individual RP, Squad warfare, and it was up to the players to choose enemies and allies. Trust was a big factor.

So people who always wanted clear rules on enemies and allies got their tag. Now, even if you dont belong to a big squad, you still do have people fighting with you. Witch is good for factionalists..

But, us who liked to be in multifactional squads, hyp/aman, unaligned, mercs or whatever got forgotten. HG gave people freedom to choose allies and enemies based on individual or squad RP.

I think, the best thing would be just reintroducing HG tag.

[netburnr]

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

Im not sure if I should pages 2 to 4 since basically all I see is 'net' complaining a lot LOL

Net.. ur the enemy. (<< that small thing is a period).

Enemies are not welcome to the other's Stations. In fact, why have 100PR with that faction if all you do is kill them? That's what doesnt make sense to me.

Anyways, as Al said, its far from perfect, but it was a nice change and one I helped many understand the much I did. It seems, also, kind of ilogic to criticize something when you werent there when it was implemented.

I'm going to skip the 20 posts above this because its just a lot of name calling. There were good points made about how overly complicated the MT system is.

Now on to the quote...

I am the enemy. Got it!

Here is my problem. You flip MT, you are now stuck MT until you take a good amount of time (not 30 minutes like courier suggestion TYVM, I just tried it), but at least a good portion of your playtime. So now you can't land at half the stations on the map, including PLAYER (NOT FACTION) OWNED STATION? Seriously, that is just plain stupid. What if after a couple fights I really want some purg missles? Ohh, I see, I have to run 8 more courier missions, then go down as civ, pick up the missles, fly back to oct, flip back to MT and start the whole damn cycle again.

That is my gripe with the whole not being able to land thing. I guess I just thought that being able to land and "recharge" was always a good thing, I guess the