[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Tritian

Seriously though, it doesn't make sense that a merchant ship would have the firepower of a warship. In WWII as an example, how many merchant ships sunk U-Boats, or any warship for that matter.

I think the 'doesn't make sense' argument falls apart on 2 fronts.

First (and most importantly) - Being helpless and at another players mercy isn't fun, and my money is just as good as his.

Second - this is a different galaxy, one that's presumably been at war for a long time. Sooner or later they'd start designing ships that could defend themselves.

I'm hoping that one way or another Netdevil realizes it's not any fun to play the victim. I'd just prefer they fix that by giving the haulers and miners means to fight back instead of artificial systems (your guns don't work on them, or massive AI comes and makes you explode).

If Netdevil puts us back in the situation where one group of players tells another group of players "if you don't like it find a different game"...they will see (again) that the second group does in fact find another game.

[dahalb]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

It's truly the only alternative I see to artificial protection of non-pvpers

I disagree. From what i saw today, it might be possible to have a single pirate attack you every step of the way from Cornea to Amananth without every having to worry about it until his mate shows up. AI can also fullfill the escort duty not just players.

[GrimGriz]

Lol, so their solution was to slap a guardian on everything? I bet Istvan wasn't happy about that

[dailatron]

Originally Posted by Liet

RL comparisons aren't applicable. Just for kicks, though, here's one that's more similar to Jumpgate: You're an armed vessel working for England, and you're at war (or things are really tense) with France. You come across a French merchant ship bringing cannons to France, and you take it or sink it. Congrats, you're a hero to England and France hates you. CONTEGO ENGLAND!

With respect (so as not to offend anyone).

If I remember right, while flying MT you CAN civ another ship without getting a bounty. Its repetitive rips you cant get away with. In all honesty the MT tag has enabled minimal civ ripping without penalties. So in reality its done more for your scenario than any other patch I can remember.

If what you mean is while flying pirate tags you cant civ anyone without penalty, youre a pirate. This isnt the 17th century.

[Jonboy]

Grim, i disagree with you. It's not that turrets would be bad. but a miner or tow is still gonna be heavy and poor at maneuvering. I just doubt ND are gonna put on any form of turret that are gonna make up for that. How can u not see that?

If you put a dress on a pig, it's still a pig, but with a dress.

[Wild_Bill]

Tritian, I'm with you on the miner gun placement/turrets but because of the slow turn rate/response on the miner and it's mass, I'd argue for a faster turret turn rate/response. A determined pirate will still probably win out, but it would make it a little more difficult, even if it was an Oct Vulture with two flails total and one sz 6 mining laser. I'd like to try what you suggest though. I think it could be pretty good.

GG, I don't disagree with you because it's you (mainly because I like your character) I just don't think it makes sense that anything capable of hauling significant amounts of anything is going to be anywhere near an equal of a built-for-purpose fighter/bomber. Function delimits and describes form. Mass will always be mass. A 4x4 Crewcab Hemi isn't going to out run or out handle a Viper on hardsurface roads, but it will go where the Viper won't and it will haul a lot more gear and people while it does so.

[netburnr]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

A 4x4 Crewcab Hemi isn't going to out run or out handle a Viper on hardsurface roads, but it will go where the Viper won't and it will haul a lot more gear and people while it does so.

You should have seen this Dodge Duely I saw the other day, dude was running some major boost and laid down 4 huge lines of rubber at a light. Of coarse I was in my LS1 Camaro, so he didn't stand a chance, but it was impressive for a massive truck at least.


Which kind of proves it I guess, a ship will always be limited to its design, and no one ship can be everything.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

Grim, i disagree with you. It's not that turrets would be bad. but a miner or tow is still gonna be heavy and poor at maneuvering. I just doubt ND are gonna put on any form of turret that are gonna make up for that. How can u not see that?

Wow, just when I think some of you understand. The whole point of the turret is not to make a miner or hauler safe. It's to give them a fighting chance. It's so when they work together in 2s or 3s, a lone fighter would lose to the team. In Jumpgate as it is, if 3 people are mining together a single fighter could rip all 3 of them, probably without getting into armor.

Turrets are about taking away the helpless feeling when a fighter decides to pick on a miner just because he can. You can at least go down swinging. You can make him dodge and weave and use his maneuverability instead of just sitting next to you and holding the trigger down. You can make your rip take more time, time maybe for help to get there...or for them to find the bastard in armor when they get there.

It's also removes the need for artificial safe zones. It says, look, space is dangerous, that's why you have a turret. Fly with a buddy, get some escort, and be ready because you WILL be attacked. I honestly only see 3 possibilties:

• Miners and haulers being able to fight back/defend themselves and each other (turrets or missiles or something).
• Artificial safe zones.
• Miners and haulers finding the game unplayable because they don't like being helpless to a 13 year old in a fighter.

What's really hard to swallow is that none of you care about the players Jumpgate lost because of this, and that none of you seem to care if Jumpgate Evolution ends up the same way (or worse, with artificial safe zones).

[Jonboy]

I do care about whether Jumpgate Evolution loses players to non-consensual combat.

That's why I favour two-server types.

Don't like getting ripped in a miner, but love the game? Move to a consensual-only server. On a non-consensual server, there would be no safe zones. The down-side to a consensual-only server is that there would be safe-zones on it. But you would be forced to choose between them.

I honestly don't think there is another solution to problem of non-consensual PvP. Some people like it and some people don't - it's as simple as that. A billion pages of internet chat won't change the fact that people have different likes and dislikes.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

I honestly don't think there is another solution to problem of non-consensual PvP. Some people like it and some people don't - it's as simple as that. A billion pages of internet chat won't change the fact that people have different likes and dislikes.

Fair enough, but my issue isn't so much the non-consensual part so much as the inability to combat when someone decides to get non-consensual with me. It should be non-consensual combat, not a non-consensual free kill. Whether or not they do separate servers, they should give everyone a fighting chance (IMO).

[Jonboy]

In Jumpgate Classic, it isn't a free-kill, as it's a persistent universe, and I am capable of getting into a fighter craft and killing the person who attacked me when I was vulnerable. Admittedly, that's easier on a small server, and the same sort of action is harder on WoW, which is not only larger, but people are usually in instances and it's not easy to chase them down and have your revenge. You can also join a scarey squad. Or i can pay someone to have my revenge.

I accept the fact that I may be killed when I'm mining. I act to reduce the risk of being killed when mining with my other actions in-game.

It's my opinion that turrets wouldn't help me much if I was being attacked. But I do see your point that they might, in the right situations.

I also think that they wouldn't encourage you to try alternatives to the turrets which would probably be more fruitful, but again that's my opinion. Choice is good. But Grim, your fixation with turrets is bizarre - have you discarded other choices for anti-piracy? I can see turrets being a good addition to Jumpgate. But not necessarily as an anti-pirate device.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Jonboy

In Jumpgate Classic, it isn't a free-kill, as it's a persistent universe, and I am capable of getting into