[Duodecimal]

Originally Posted by Chemdog

Well, unfortunately I can't read the forums all day at work, so I probably missed most of that other stuff. Yes, if you implement all these nifty things then it is less of an issue. But, having everyone start with taylor-made faction ships brings out the whole "I want to customize my ship loadout" people. They can be quite vocal, you know.

Of course they can -- once they can afford to buy their own ship. Then they can customize all they want. And in my wet-dream world, economic players can help them customize even more by creating specialized gear with stronger stats in certain areas.

You could have all the time in the world and probably not be able to slog through my only big post on these subjects. No one else seems to have.

[vorlon31]

LOL! Bravo! Hilarious!

I have seen posts saying that the community should be allowed to police itself, that the community can police itself for years and years, and as always, it is worth noting that to a man, this pov comes from the side of the fence that most likely is the one needing policing.

No offence Liet, but your reputation alone in the Jumpgate universe is testament to this flawed yearning you have for a self policing community without police.

Jumpgate has been a self policing experiment since conception and the results speak for themselves and the truth of the matter is that self policing is a myth. It doesnt happen in jumpgate and never has, nor has it happened in any other online game either.

Lets be honest, it doesn't even happen in a game of monopoly set up on the living room floor and played amongst family, let alone something that encourages a global playerbase with all those personalities mixing it up.

Any nostalgic remembrances to the days of old when Jumpgate allegedly self policed itself are selectively forgetting what happened when those being the 'police' logged off, what happened in the off peak hours and in the quiet times.

Instead you should remember all of the players who carry(ied) round the reputations that left civ's typing /give faster than a fasty thing as soon as they saw them in space and then you should as yourself, if self policing worked how can such reps even exist?

Jumpgate Classic simply doesn't police itself, which is why after successive unpoliceable player after unpoliceable player, the bounty system has evolved into what it is today. Sure you may not like the Jumpgate Classic bounty system with its huge bounties, but always remember that it was the civ rippers who made it that way, not the 'carebears', it was the habitual civ rippers who refused restrain themselves that made it.

So, if Jumpgate Evolution does have police AI, like Eve, and killer bot defended no-fire zones like Vendetta online, then I salute the man who codes it in and to those who want to play the bad guys I say that it is you that needs to Evolve too. It wont break your RP at all, instead it gives your RP the boundaries and fringes that are needed to stop your RP becoming the games bane.

[Chemdog]

Just because the EU-GMs decided to place certain restrictions and rules on civving/griefing because the community did not want to self-police, don't think that is the same thing on the US server. This only became an issue as of recent because of the low population. I promise that self-policing was much more common when numbers were higher. I learned that the hard way, following Liet through space as a relative noob while he was already an ace. My insurance rating speaks for itself.

Self-policing CAN work, in the right environment. We just need to help create that environment.

[Karash]

I will be honest Duo, if death loses its meaning in Jumpgate Evolution then a lot of players (including me) will not play it. If this was a tactical simulation game where there were 100v100 servers across the world, sure, I would agree...but this is a MMO. If there are no real death penalities in a MMO, then those players wishing to really challenge themselves against each other (regardless of profession) will simply play other games like Eve Online.

[vorlon31]

As for flux dumpers? - the new AI will take care of that I'm sure.

Equipment thief's? - stop thinking corner store and start thinking supermarket.

Commodity thief's? - see above.

Civ strippers? - see above too.

Bad mouther's of your faction - that's a comm's problem born of everyone being on the same damn common f5. Chats need to be re-thought, re-rationalized and re-designed so that such things are less likely and a direct F4 - 'your faction smells' kind of reads a little childish and not a taunt of war.

[Chemdog]

Why would I want to think supermarket? I thought the biggest complaint about the econ was the glut of equipment. Remove the glut, make it all player produced. Then see what people say when you splash their equipment.

[vorlon31]

To be honest, Jumpgate Evolution needs to be more than Jumpgate Classic is or ever was.

Jumpgate Evolution represent the end of Jumpgate Classic, the end of that game we've all been playing since 'forever' with our characters and knowledge that has been built up over thousands of hours online.

Jumpgate Evolution represents a real turning point in our playing habits too and the truth of the matter is that it needs to contend directly with games like Eve in the scope of player protection and player development because it will not have that long term attachment and player history we all have and take for granted in Jumpgate Classic.

Like most of you, I've played other games too and none have grabbed me like Jumpgate Classic grabbed my interest all tose years ago and Jumpgate Evolution had damn well grab my attention too because if its not right then it will fall to its competitors before it even gets off of the ground.

[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Chemdog

Why would I want to think supermarket? I thought the biggest complaint about the econ was the glut of equipment. Remove the glut, make it all player produced. Then see what people say when you splash their equipment.

We know what happens, ask ne1 about Me_1 and his duelists habbit.

And the only glut complaint I have ever heard is over un-used, un-favoured and useless equipments that do nothing but eat useful comods and sit in stations doing nothing.

[Tim]

Chemdog does raise an interesting point...

If you want to have police, it probably makes sense to have a reason for a pilot to become a cop. So, make equipment production vital. Vital.

From mining to hauling commods to moving 2nd and 3rd tier commods.

How important would mining be if, say, each unit of mined ore really turned into a 1:1 ratio on product.. so, for instance, it really took 10 units of common rock to crank out 1 unit of silicon (there would be some other stuff, too, and some slag.. see the JOSSH breakdown for details)

The average missle takes, what, 4 different commods? That means that, basically, 4 units of mining needed to happen. And 4 units of stuff getting hauled around.

Talk about miners being important, in that world.

Every blown up ship would represent, what, 10 minutes of mining? The average war would mean hours and hours of somebody mining.

Then you'd have some folks motivated enough to protect their miners. _That's_ your community policing right there.

hmm.

[SingleShot]

Yes, but that can jack up the cost of death a whole lot.

[TexMurphy]

There have been successfull games on both sides of the harsh death penalty fence.

In EvE the penalties are massive. WoW almost none. Both very successfull games.

So I dont think people will leave over death penalty but I think they will if they cant protect them selfs from death. If I can reduce risk then I think its gonna be ok. I do think that AI policed sectors would reduce risk enough for the non pvpers who dont want to get in trouble (together with non fighter ship defenses) enough to drasticly reduce the moronic civ ripping. Hopefully there still would be room for the self policing rips.

tex

[Duodecimal]

Originally Posted by Tim

The average missle takes, what, 4 different commods? That means that, basically, 4 units of mining needed to happen. And 4 units of stuff getting hauled around.

Talk about miners being important, in that world.

Every blown up ship would represent, what, 10 minutes of mining? The average war would mean hours and hours of somebody mining.

I disagree... a problem we had in Jumpgate Classic was keeping things stocked when station production halted for certain pieces of equipment. If the game's going to be mainly combat oriented, and if most players aren't interested in running boutique factories and mining, then a small number of miners will need to support a large amount of production.

It's always been a matter of scale. If a fraction of the player base can supply the majority with gear, then a relatively closed production economy can work. But requiring a huge amount of raw mining to go into each piece of gear will lead to the same supply problems that plagued Classic.

So... mining yield has to scale to production demands. I'd prefer nothing to go to waste. If you drag back 100 tons of ore, you ought to get 100 tons of refined materials, even if most of it is silicon, iron, and oxygen.