[Nemz]

Ok, this is something I've thought about for a long time while I was still playing Jumpgate, and I was just reminded about it by something Karash said, so I will try to reconstruct the idea. It's been some 3 years since I thought about it, so there may be holes, and some details may not be true anymore due to changes in the game, but that should be beside the point.

Anyway:

In classic Jumpgate, there were a handful of game mechanics that most people seemed to agree did not produce the results that were intended.
The ones I am thinking about here are primarily the HG/Civ tag system, Bounties, and the various PvP careers, such as pirates, factional agressor/defender, bounty hunters etc.
The solution to most of the issues with them (if I need to explain those, please just ask) is already built into the game, just not implemented properly and deeply enough: The Political Ratings system.

In Jumpgate Classic, you gain PR by doing repeated boring missions, and then it stays forever, except for the 25 "bonus" PR that decay slowly over time. The only way to ever lose any PR, is to rip a civ, and then you end up in negative. The only thing PR affects is your personal tax, allowance to buy stuff, as well as the existance and size of any eventual factional bounty. This is, IMO, a vast under- and mis-use of a good idea.

My suggestion is simple in concept: Make PR have bigger effect on more things, and change the ways you gain and lose it.

How to implement it is a bit more complex, but I will give a few examples to explain what I'm aiming for. If you do not like stories, you can skip the following

Rollio the Sol shoots down an honest, hard-working, honorable Quantar tow pilot Rocklicker without provocation in regulated space. Such a henious act of villany makes the Quantar Government sad, and they issue a bounty reward for killing him, and think Rollio is a Meanie. (Working as intended. Huge PR loss and permanent bounty)
However, since Rocklicker have also been shipping in goods and selling it to Sol Core for quite some time, and proven himself as a fair businessman, Solrain thinks Rollio is dumb and bad for business. Due to lost revenue from Rocklicker's shipping, they will charge Rollio extra, and maybe not sell him the best missiles they have.
Pilot QuantAvenger finds and kills Rollio the Meanie. Quantar thinks he's a Hero Of Our People, and gives him shinies and hot chicks. Solrain on the other hand, while they think Rollio is dumb, he's still Sol and thus thinks QuantAvenger has been naughty. However, he has a decent record and Rollio has been mean...so ok, no bounty...this time.

Hamalzahn Nemz the Raving Lunatic thinks Rollio and his cohorts have been preying on the pious for too long, and decides that it is time to purge the galaxy of the Blue Menace. Solrain does of course not tolerate such blatant abuse of their citizens, fighters or not, and send out sector alerts to stop this madman whenever he shows up in Solrain space. While Nemz is crazy, he is not a murderer, and thus only attacks Solrain pilots that have participated in hostile actions against his fellow quants, while leaving the few honorable sols alone. This way, he manages to avoid the Wrath of Hamalzah, and actually earn some respect back home. Perhaps some of those that got shot down weren't The Spawn of Darkness, but he got some really bad apples down too, so it's all good.

Rocklicker is out from the hospital again and back in space. For the longest time, he has been trading back and forth between Quantar and Solrain, so both factions think he's an ok dude. Due to the recent hostilities, however, Quantar doesn't really like the idea of someone selling goods to the blues, and has even put a ban on weapons sales. Weapons are highly profitable, but probably not worth the risk of breaking the law. He could ship some construcion materials, but that will hurt his reputation back home. Selling to the Octs would hurt his standing with the Sols somewhat, since they're still recovering from that huge war they had a month ago, but maybe it's worth it. Or he could always set up a deal with that fence out in Evening's End, that will sell the stuff on to the sols...that might even make enough profit to hire an escort. Or maybe he'll just mine and trade inside Quantar until it all blows over.

Basically, PRs should be constantly moving, interacting, living things. Killing someone that is hated by a faction should make that faction like you more, and vice versa. Helping a faction that is at war with another should make them trust you more, and their enemies trust you less. Shooting at or stealing from people that act civilian (as opposed to waving a flag around) should be a crime. Stopping an enemy weapon shipment during wartime should be a rewarded. Destroying hundreds of enemies should make you a hero with your faction, and a priority target for the enemy. Harming nobody and staying within the confines of the law should make you accepted by most, while you may not get access to the finest they have to offer.

The mechanics seem fairly simple to me. PR is already recorded individually. Put the numbers in question into a formula when an event occurs and modify them according to the result.

So what do we have now? A system that makes more or less everything everyone does, have a global effect on the political landscape. Where nobody can be worshipped by everyone in the galaxy at once, and where people can choose sides actively.

This is the base of it. I have follow-up suggestions that I will discuss below.

[GrimGriz]

See WileE's thread on PR

[Nemz]

So how do we make this interact with career choices?

One way could be to modify and expand the idea with tags that we have today.
Have more tags, and make them stick more. The way I see it, donning a tag should be a serious commitment to the cause it represents, not some willy-nilly "one minute a pirate, the other a civilian" thing. This would of course require that the effect of the tag should influence more in the long-term, and not decide whether or not you will get shot when you launch.

An Honor Guard tag would tell people that you are a factionalist, and proud of it. You are openly devoted to your nation's cause, and thus your nation is more devoted to you in return. You gain access to their finest weapons and equipment to use in defense (the best of which is offense, of course ) and prosperity of your faction, that others cannot get. You gain a lot with your faction for fighting badguys, but also lose a lot with other factions, since you're doing it "officially".

A Mercenary or Freelancer tag would show that you're primarily into whatever you're doing for money, and not status or some cause. Like an oct fighting quants for the sols, a bountyhunter chasing pirates and other criminals, maybe a sol doing a lot of trading in unreg. Employed by anyone, trusted by none. Would have less impact on PRs both up and down, both for yourself and others. Their work is nothing personal, which also means nobody cries for a dead merc.

TRI tags for those devoted to the multifactional cause and the war against the conflux, with increased rewards for zapping pinkies, doing reconstructive missions and the like. Maybe hunting criminals as well. Perhaps get access to TRI tech, fluxing weapons etc.

And of course, the pirates are, well...pirates and other outlaws. Yarr!


The main idea is that the PR system should decide if you will get shot by that Oct or not, while your tag governs the effects of it.

Getting late now, so I'll stop rambling and continue another day.

[Nemz]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

See WileE's thread on PR

That's in General Discussion. This is a Suggestion and Idea that goes beyond just PR and will be way too wordy to stuff into that thread.
(There is more to come to it still)

[dahalb]

A fully interactive ratings system should definitely be a requirement tho. Actions, all actions, should have consequences.

As for tags, I think what you're eluding to is more of a career tag rather than anything else. I agree that in Jumpgate Classic the implementation was poor and didn't really reflect a career choice. Also, tags were visible to everyone. I don't think this is truly and good thing. In order for someone's career choice to be visible to everyone, they should first that career then act in it for a while so that the governments/corporations actually know what they are doing. Like any form of intelligence it takes time for things to be "known".

If I chose to be a pirate, not everyone would know straight away that that is my intention. If I become a military type, my faction mates would know, but not necessarily the enemy. The nuances could be worked out I'm sure but as I said, a fully interactive ratings system needs to be considered.

[GrimGriz]

career tags would be as restrictive as playing a warrior vs a mage. One of the best things about Jumpgate is the ability to change your role if you tire of being the pvper or miner or artihunter.

What I wouldn't mind though, is a tag showing that sums up your current PR status based on the person looking at you. For example, if you're a solrain war hero, the solrain symbol could show by your name, and that way the oct targeting you would know his solrain PR would go down if he rips you.

Career-wise, once affiliation is known they can figure out the rest they need to know based on the ship your in. There really should be no civilian or military...in the war state that the galaxy is in, everyone is a target. The civilian nonsense is false security.

[dahalb]

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

There really should be no civilian or military...in the war state that the galaxy is in, everyone is a target. The civilian nonsense is false security.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

career tags would be as restrictive as playing a warrior vs a mage.

Not necessarily but I see what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

One of the best things about Jumpgate is the ability to change your role if you tire of being the pvper or miner or artihunter.

Completely agree.

Originally Posted by GrimGriz

sums up your current PR status based on the person looking at you.

I always thought that this sort of thing should be implemented as part of the radar system also. If squads are at war, then they should show as enemy.

[Ambrosius]

I don't disagree with the idea that PR is under-utilized, but (Nemz) you do have some factual problems. You can lose PR by doing things other than ripping a civ. There's PR decay, mission failure, and now when you're mil, your PR goes down when you have a valid enemy kill -- not only with the enemy faction but with others as well (which I dislike).

Regarding tags and careers, I say get rid of tags entirely and tie the pilot "career/RP" to her/his squad choice.

[Wild_Bill]

I like a PR based approach but I also like tags. I see someone with pirate tags I instantly know I should be wary of them, even if they are in a non-combat ship. Using the current radar responses, if your faction is at war status with mine, you are instantly labled "enemy" even if you are civ-tagged. Tags give an indication of intent. Bounties show PR relationship with my faction and to a degree indicate their potential danger to me. Same with squad tags. If I see "Balrog", I'm on guard, even in faction space. In unreg I know I'm in trouble (past tense I guess).

HG tags meant "I'm ready & willing to fight". Civ tags meant I don't want to fight and Pirate tags meant "I've been bad, or I want to be bad". MT now just means you actively want to PvP and are working to support your factions' military. They do not mean you are dangerous to me as long as I am civ. Unreg? Means everyone I see is potentially dangerous to me.

The "no tag" concept to me means anyone and everyone I see is potentially dangerous to me. If I'm in a loaded miner or hauler, I really don't want that. To me, it would be like constantly flying in unreg where every hand may be against me. I don't like that feeling.

[WileE]

WB, wouldn't you get just as much information if, when you targeted someone, that your HUD shows "Pilot WileE -- Honored" or "Pilot WileE - ENEMY" ?

As PR stands now, it is a BS stat that takes up space. You run your missions, and you may someday find yourself below 100PR, but you would really have to do something for that. If PR becomes a metric, it can potentially tell you alot more than Civ/HG, as you will better be able to judge intents based on current history.

[Wild_Bill]

All I really want is someway to identify, as soon as I can identify them, a pilot's intent towards me.

I see a 'flux, I KNOW he's going to attack me. I see a pirate tag, with a bounty, and I know I MAY be in danger. If he heads towards me then I KNOW I am in danger, but I may not have enough time for anything beyond an expletive or short prayer. If we are both MT badged, then I know the chances of hostile interaction is very high. Another civ means I'm in little or no danger.

So if you can somehow figure out how to cram all that into "Honored" or "Enemy" I will, figuritively anyway, worship at your feet!

I agree that currently PR is of limited value, at least until it goes negative and a pilot shows a bounty for unsocial actions. For me personally, my PR only affects what I can buy and where I can buy it. Some times I have to run extra missions to acquire certain equipment from a faction station. It's artificially capped at 125, and unless I make some tragic mistep, will not go below 100. Our current PR system, mixed in with our current WAR meter makes no sense at all. A German ship would not be allowed to dock at an American port during either World War I or II, much less buy military supplies. Why then can I, as a civilian, buy missiles from Quantar or lasers from Solrain? It makes no sense. No more sense actually than seeing a civilian ship tagged "Enemy" with no bounty.