[GrimGriz]

Startlingly funny coming from you, as you don't seem to care what other sacrifices have to be made for Jumpgate Evolution to be successful. Besides, those people can look at the AI now. The first thing Jumpgate needs is paying customers, and if those happen to enjoy relatively meaningless romps in the sim, how is that different from them being 70k off radar looking for artifacts (other than their interacting with more people in the sim?)

[Jump]

So now you have resorted to insults, and trying to influence what people think i care about, to press your ideas? Games are not real, there are no sacrifices. People don't have to agree with Grimgriz or Jump to care.

[Eraser55]

I tought we had this discussion before?

anyway.. Im sure Sim could be done much better then it is now. But if it is made more fun then the Real Space, if 80% of players that are going to play Jumpgate Evolution play it just for the SIM, then imo ND will fail to create a MMORPG.

Im not against Sim being very fun element of the game. We all know how fun it can be now, and Im sure US pilots had much fun in their WoW's. Im just against making it better and more appealing then real space. Im not paying to play just a game, but a mmorpg.

[Jump]

Originally Posted by Eraser55

I tought we had this discussion before?

anyway.. Im sure Sim could be done much better then it is now. But if it is made more fun then the Real Space, if 80% of players that are going to play Jumpgate Evolution play it just for the SIM, then imo ND will fail to create a MMORPG.

Im not against Sim being very fun element of the game. We all know how fun it can be now, and Im sure US pilots had much fun in their WoW's. Im just against making it better and more appealing then real space. Im not paying to play just a game, but a mmorpg.

QFT

[netburnr]

This thread is so negative feeling I don't even want to reply to it anymore. I could write a paragraph response to at least 3 posts, yet because of the people involved and their attitude, I don't think I'm going to. Jump already asked you all to understand other people's opinions before throwing a tantrum, yet you are all still so defensive against anyone else's input.

So I'll leave it at this.

The simulator is not real space. The simulator can be upgraded and made more fun. The simulator does not give any rewards that affect player stats. The simulator is a great place for a group of people to practice, or just have some random fun.

The simulator is not there to be a 2nd real space. The simulator is not there to be a place for people to play all the time. The simulator is not somewhere someone should expect to be left alone.

If everyone sits in the sim all day long, then we have exactly the same problem Jumpgate Classic has....NO ONE in real space.

[GrimGriz]

Originally Posted by Jump

So now you have resorted to insults, and trying to influence what people think i care about, to press your ideas? Games are not real, there are no sacrifices. People don't have to agree with Grimgriz to care.

I fail to see the insult in my previous reply. Perhaps you haven't noticed how often someone is concerned about some part about Jumpgate being altered in Jumpgate Evolution and you respond with what amounts to 'so what, as long as it's successful.' That's all I'm saying to you now.

There are sacrifices. Jumpgate Evolution has already sacrificed one thing that made Jumpgate unique...the whole "every ship you see in space is a real person" thing.

I think it's fairly moronic to make the sim not fun because you're scared it will be funner than real space. Why not find a way to make real space even funner? Designing for the lowest common denominator shouldn't be the design model.

Furthermore, a working jumpgate in the sim doesn't make it better than realspace. Ask SingleShot, it's all about the stats, and there aren't stats in the sim

[Jump]

I have never repsponded with "so what, as long as it's successful" only my viewpoint at the time, on the subject at hand. As does everyone else who has a view. If you have a link to show where I have used that quote then show it, other than that, you are reading to much into my opinions simply because you do not like me or whatever the reason. Either way, it's only your opinion. I will press on caring about about Jumpgate and Jumpgate Evolution in the ways that I can and do.

[Wild_Bill]

I'd love to have the flux simulator give you BIG flux to practice fighting. I mean if we're going for cheap thrills and learned skills, THAT's one that could actually help me! Other AI opponents to learn against at no cost to me would be nice as well. That's the kind of simming I'd like to see added. Not teaching real players how easy I am to kill, but letting me learn how to kill something better, even if it is only AI.

As far as that goes, I'd like to see some kind of a sim video feature where we could capture fights from multiple angles. Say Netburnrol and I go to the sim for a little practice. We set it up (as an instance?) just for the two of us and set it to "record, multiple angles; multiple speeds; cockpit view and 3rd person view", then have at. Later, either of us could go back and watch the "video" of our combat at standard speed, high speed or slow motion and from various angles/view points to get a better feel for what errors we may have made. Assuming either of us did something really great or at least mildly intersting, we could share the vid (wav file?) with others. Alternately, we could do large scale battles using the same video techniques. THAT could be a crowd pleaser! OR a great training aid. Imagine being able to see vid footage of Madjakal teaching the divebomb technique, or InterOrka teaching "nuke the dupe" on pirates, swarms or others.

The above two suggestions are something I'd really like to see as sim features. The few times I've gone to the sim for "training" I really couldn't tell what the hell I did wrong because it was all over so fast all I could see was "Bam BAM BAM BOOM" and a pod ride. Hard to learn from that. Even if someone else there TELLS me what I did wrong it's hard to visualize it (for me anyway).

[Jonboy]

Originally Posted by Anvil

I was just thinking of some PvE ideas and instances seemed to me to be a good way to do it....

Couple thoughts on PvE in the sim. .... it should provide the players with some sort of reward system making it worth while to do.

If they just "toss the PvErs a bone" by putting poorly planned non-rewarding simulations in the simulator then i will be sad..... By ignoring any one of the above Jumpgate Evolution runs the risk of not competing in todays market IMO.

Originally Posted by Jonboy

A lot ... don't (yet) want any interaction between the instance and rest of space. This would include rewards....

Originally Posted by Anvil

I never said ANY OF THAT!!!

Please DON'T put words in my mouth.
Anvil

What happened in WoW for a LONG time was that people would have to go to instances to get gear, to be competitive in PvP.

The situation has changed there somewhat. But there are still problems with PvE instances. Now, PvP in WoW is mostly instanced and boring too.

If you didn't want to discuss instances, FINE. why did you bring them up?
=======
I'll repeat the fact that I agree that Jumpgate Evolution will need additional content. I think there can be rewards. I'd like to see some new thinking and examples.

[netburnr]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

I'd love to have the flux simulator give you BIG flux to practice fighting. I mean if we're going for cheap thrills and learned skills, THAT's one that could actually help me! Other AI opponents to learn against at no cost to me would be nice as well. That's the kind of simming I'd like to see added. Not teaching real players how easy I am to kill, but letting me learn how to kill something better, even if it is only AI.

As far as that goes, I'd like to see some kind of a sim video feature where we could capture fights from multiple angles. Say Netburnrol and I go to the sim for a little practice. We set it up (as an instance?) just for the two of us and set it to "record, multiple angles; multiple speeds; cockpit view and 3rd person view", then have at. Later, either of us could go back and watch the "video" of our combat at standard speed, high speed or slow motion and from various angles/view points to get a better feel for what errors we may have made. Assuming either of us did something really great or at least mildly intersting, we could share the vid (wav file?) with others. Alternately, we could do large scale battles using the same video techniques. THAT could be a crowd pleaser! OR a great training aid. Imagine being able to see vid footage of Madjakal teaching the divebomb technique, or InterOrka teaching "nuke the dupe" on pirates, swarms or others.

The above two suggestions are something I'd really like to see as sim features. The few times I've gone to the sim for "training" I really couldn't tell what the hell I did wrong because it was all over so fast all I could see was "Bam BAM BAM BOOM" and a pod ride. Hard to learn from that. Even if someone else there TELLS me what I did wrong it's hard to visualize it (for me anyway).

Yes and Yes!

Being able to practice against all the flux (and maybe the other types of AI ships for us pirates, yarr) would be freaking awesome. I was always a it scared to go up against the big stuff because I never got a chance to practice against them.

Also, being able to record ingame, kind of like Halo 3, would be freaking awesome. Basically you tell it to record, then you can come back later and change the angle of view, change speed, etc. Also, to be able to share these recordings would be really awesome.

[Anvil]

EDIT: DO NOT COMMENT OR QUOTE SNIPPETS OF THIS REPLY IF YOU DO NOT INTEND TO READ THE WHOLE THING. THANKS!

Originally Posted by Jonboy

What happened in WoW for a LONG time was that people would have to go to instances to get gear, to be competitive in PvP.

The situation has changed there somewhat. But there are still problems with PvE instances. Now, PvP in WoW is mostly instanced and boring too.

If you didn't want to discuss instances, FINE. why did you bring them up?
=======
I'll repeat the fact that I agree that Jumpgate Evolution will need additional content. I think there can be rewards. I'd like to see some new thinking and examples.

That was gross manipulation of quotes. LOL

Let me make this simple for you so we can get past this and start discussing other PvE ideas of which I have already contributed.

I NEVER said that players should receive rewards for simming that would have any influence on Real Space play. Please find a quote where I said that (or are you going to now cut and paste a bunch of different fragments of my sentences to make it up?)

Those were words you put in my mouth by implying that I even mentioned "loot" as you put it yet I NEVER said anything like it. I also later mentioned that what I meant by rewards could summarily be Status rewards such as player standings, squad standings, and medals. So really please get off my back about this.

Now lets break down where you are completely wrong:

Originally Posted by Jonboy

What happened in WoW for a LONG time was that people would have to go to instances to get gear, to be competitive in PvP.

The situation has changed there somewhat. But there are still problems with PvE instances. Now, PvP in WoW is mostly instanced and boring too.

WoW is a gear based game. It also has the LARGEST subscriber base of all MMO's. You never HAD to go to instances to get gear for PvP. In fact PvP gear is better at PvP than PvE gear 90% of the time. So I believe you just made that up.

PvP in WoW is only instanced because MOST servers started going the way of non-PvP which meant you could not be attacked or killed by the opposing faction if you didn't want. These "carebear" servers saw players reaching the highest levels and then boredom set in. When Burning Crusades was released they added ALOT of instanced PvP so that the "carebear" servers could also join in the PvP experience without changing the way their entire world server worked.

SINCE you like to use WoW as a reference. AND since it isn't all together a horrible idea in a limited sense I would like to point out some things which will relate to other peoples fears of Instances killing the Real Game world.

PvP servers in WoW are much the same as Jumpgate in that almost anywhere in the real world you run the risk of being attacked by people of the opposing faction just like how Real Space works in Jumpgate. These servers are RIPE with lots of PvE instances AND as Jonboy said PvP instances now. So based on the irrational idea that if PvE and PvP instances are too good then you would never see real world PvP we should expect that nobody is roaming the Real Game world in WoW looking for a fight right?

However, that is hogwash as evidenced by the activity witnessed on PvP servers. Almost weekly, Real Game World raids are organized and major cities are attacked. The local defense outcry gets sent and players from both factions gather by the hundreds to defend or lay siege to the City at hand. Furthermore, I find it fascinating that Real Game World PvP is SO strong in WoW and yet Blizzard has of yet to add ANY reward for doing so. NONE. ZIP. ZILCH. If you Organize the Raid of a lifetime and manage to kill the King of one of the races of the opposing faction you receive nothing except one thing.... bragging rights.

And that brings us full circle to Jumpgate Evolution. It doesn't matter how good they make the sim. Real Space combat will ALWAYS be alive and healthy for it is the only place to truly obtain bragging rights and a true satisfaction of accomplishment.

I would like to add at this time that no matter how good ND makes the sim I will be spending the majority of my time in Real Space. I am not arguing for good PvE or PvP in the simulator because "I" want to see it but because it will make the game better. And if the game is better, more people will play. And if more people are playing... we ALL enjoy the game more.

Anvil