PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat

Anvil

For the longest time i've felt that Jumpgate Classic did a pretty good job of creating balanced PvP and a nice 100% player based economy for non-combatants to enjoy. But many other games such as WoW, EQ1&2, Lineage II, DNDOnline, LOTRO, etc... have all seen great success by creating well thought out and planned PvE combat... one thing Jumpgate Classic was IMO always bad at.

Random flux spawns with limited AI does not cut it in todays heavy PvE environment. Now I'm not saying we need to lose any of the charm that is Jumpgate Classic in Jumpgate Evolution but I would LOVE to see PvE taken more seriously this time around.

The way "instances" are set up in WoW would be relatively simple to incorporate into Jumpgate Evolution. Example below (only an example):

Let's say your squad has a scheduled Raid on a Raid level 1 Flux infestation which is located 3 jumps into Flux space. Once the wing reaches the jumpgate leading to the infestation it creates a separate "instance" of that infestion just for that wing (must assume ability to group many players under a single wing such as Raid groups in WoW). This allows your wing of 20 or 30 players to make a massive assault on a major Flux infestation but because it is "instanced" a different squad would be able to enter their own instance of the infestation with their wing exactly the same way instances work in WoW.

The benefits would be:
1.) Provide combat and team oriented players a viable alternative to pure PvP.
2.) Provide rewards equal to conducting major economic or PvP actions such as improved reputation with certain factions, TRI paid cash sums, and perhaps some rare artifacts.
3.) "Instances" would be put on a timer so everyone who has jumped into the instance would be stuck with that version of it (win or lose) for a week before the instance is reset for him/her. This allows reattempts within that week and also prevents overfarming.
4.) "Instances" allow more than that one squad or wing to make the assault and receive the pleasure and benefits.
5.) These instances could also begin by sending in a Scout or Ranger ship to scan the facilities to determine what type of weapons need to be brought this time to the instance (assuming some randomness in the encounter). This makes Scouting a more viable play option and needed skill for Jumpgate Evolution as well.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm not trying to make Jumpgate Evolution like WoW by any means. I hate gear based games and love the focus on flight that Jumpgate has but I just think that PvE could be expanded upon SO much more than it is and it would improve the player base of the game to boot.

Anvil

Sephiroth

I really don't think we need WoW in space.

Playing through the same instance every time the timer is up is boring.

netburnr

While I agree with the sentiment of the thread, I also disagree with instancing normal space. This is a step in the wrong direction imho, and has no place in a persistent online universe. However if there should be a need for instancing, flux space is the only place I would really want this to happen.

As far as PvE, I think this is going to be looked at very long and hard by ND, and with the invention of their new AI system, they have an awesome tool at their disposal to really work on that. I agree, fighting the same flux all the time got pretty boring, and unless you were going for a flux medal, there really wasn't any "point" to it all, you never won, just just beat the spawn, and there would be plenty more where that came from.

Now they have the ability to have other AIs, which I think is going to be extremely interesting, like I've said many times, I'm looking forward to fighting off AI controlled "enforcers" in my pirate account.

Anvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I really don't think we need WoW in space.

Playing through the same instance every time the timer is up is boring.

First off, I didn't say put WoW in space. I said put something in the game that every single successful game has in it. Secondly, nobody is making you play the instance. Thirdly, the encounter can be randomized.

Jumpgate Evolution is not going to be Jumpgate Classic... the sooner we embrace that the better.

Anvil

Anvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by netburnrol

While I agree with the sentiment of the thread, I also disagree with instancing normal space. This is a step in the wrong direction imho, and has no place in a persistent online universe. However if there should be a need for instancing, flux space is the only place I would really want this to happen.

Well, I really hope ND comes up with something else for PvE players other than instances but nobody to date has come up with a better solution. The need is there already. It's one of many reasons for Jumpgate Classic's lack of success. PvE is here to stay and "instances" is an established way to accomplish that. Feel free to post better ideas but I still stand by what I said.

Also, I would only want to see this in Flux space... far from the rest of the persistent universe.

Anvil

netburnr

Instead of us rehashing the whole instances debate, why dont you use the search feature and search that word and see whats already been said, and reply to those threads.

Anvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by netburnrol

Instead of us rehashing the whole instances debate, why dont you use the search feature and search that word and see whats already been said, and reply to those threads.

Why don't you whine somewhere else. This is a thread about PvE and how it will fit in with PvP and non-combat players. I proposed Instances only as an example but the point of the thread was to come up with new PvE idea's.

If you are incapable of generating idea's or constructive comments please don't reply to this thread.

Anvil

Badger

I'm gonna join this love-fest. I hope there's enough massage oil and marshmallows to go around!

I'm quite uncertain about instancing. I agree that it is a powerful tool...but it does a serious injury to game-wide continuity.

"I just blew up an enormous flux base"
"You mean the one I'm just heading off to fight? How was it?"

I think that dynamic encounters and intelligent AI are vastly preferable to farmable raid points. Furthermore, if ND wants to have Flux bases for us to attack, then why do they need to instance them? Just have them pop up every once in a while, and let us find them for ourselves. A player-organized impromptu raid on a base which, once destroyed, will have a marked influence on flux activity in the area, is going to be way more satisfying than just finishing an instance knowing that you haven't really altered the world at all.

Finally, and I think this is perhaps the most important point, Thin Mints are the only cookie. All other cookies lack the true cookie-fu.

netburnr

Well if you want to only have a thread with you and Seph in it, be my guest.

Also, I was the only person to even come up with any constructive criticism in the first place.

Anvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badger

I'm gonna join this love-fest. I hope there's enough massage oil and marshmallows to go around!

I'm quite uncertain about instancing. I agree that it is a powerful tool...but it does a serious injury to game-wide continuity.

"I just blew up an enormous flux base"
"You mean the one I'm just heading off to fight? How was it?"

I think that dynamic encounters and intelligent AI are vastly preferable to farmable raid points. Furthermore, if ND wants to have Flux bases for us to attack, then why do they need to instance them? Just have them pop up every once in a while, and let us find them for ourselves. A player-organized impromptu raid on a base which, once destroyed, will have a marked influence on flux activity in the area, is going to be way more satisfying than just finishing an instance knowing that you haven't really altered the world at all.

Finally, and I think this is perhaps the most important point, Thin Mints are the only cookie. All other cookies lack the true cookie-fu.

I totally agree with Thin Mints being the only cookie

I originally thought about not instancing the same encounters. They could use an in-game news network emergency service to announce the location or something. But other games that have tried this have always run into the same problem. Zerg squads. These are groups of people that play ALOT and whenever a major PvE spawn appears they are there first and the fight is over before anyone else knows what happened.

Although, one solution would be to scale the encounters to be able to include lots of people. One idea I had of this would be to have a large "mother ship" type Flux (cannot be damaged by players) show up somewhere which continuously spawns Flux to kill. This gives alot of us time to arm up and get over there to help the fight. Then after so many minutes a TRI Destroyer (NPC driven preferably) shows up and things get serious as the Destroyer and Flux-mother unload on eachother. All the meanwhile we have to protect the Destroyer from the flux until the Mother-ship thingy is destroyed and the Destroyer jumps out of sector.

If that happened often enough and lasted long enough then PvE in the persistent universe might be viable. Some issues still with that though. One major one being timing. I mean wouldn't it suck to log in and find out you missed the major Flux battle by like 5 minutes? So maybe using rumors in the news would be an option for "scheduling" these encounters... i dunno.

Anvil

netburnr

Now we are talking.

See you didn't need my creative juice (wow that sounds dirty).

I like the idea of massive space battles including AI versus AI with the assistance of players, it will definitly allow ND to have the "massive space battles" that they want!

As far as the flux massive ship, it sounds very similar to "infestations" in Jumpgate Classic

Jonboy

Here's the thread on instances:

Intances in JGE??

It even has comments by Scorch.
======
I personally hate it when people say 'you can just spawn a random sector and random enemies.' Blizzard employs a large number of people to design and test new sectors to make sure they are appropriate and balanced. Random isn't even remotely useful.
======
Otherwise, yes. new PvE ideas are essential to Jumpgate Evolution's success.

TRI Pilots On Duty
On Duty:	15
In Flight:	8
Solrain:	4
Octavius:	7
Quantar:	4
TRI:	0

Category	Pilot	Score
Kills	Algore	2,675
Kill Ratio*	_KROM_	470.000 %
Bounty Collected	Killntime	402,798,952
Munitions Accuracy*	Psycho	85.916 %
Projectile Accuracy*	Psycho	96.61 %
Total Conflux Kills	vorlon31	147,396
Experience	Adi564	100,000,000
Mission Success Ratio*	Arkady	100 %
Insurance Rating*	Farve	10 %
Net Worth	McPlowed	c22,478,882,308
Duty Hours	RedDwarf	15,722.5
*minimum requirements to qualify


	Anvil Cadet Pilot Name: Anvil Faction: Quantar Joystick: Saitek ST290 Pro Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Quantar Core Posts: 72	PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat For the longest time i've felt that Jumpgate Classic did a pretty good job of creating balanced PvP and a nice 100% player based economy for non-combatants to enjoy. But many other games such as WoW, EQ1&2, Lineage II, DNDOnline, LOTRO, etc... have all seen great success by creating well thought out and planned PvE combat... one thing Jumpgate Classic was IMO always bad at. Random flux spawns with limited AI does not cut it in todays heavy PvE environment. Now I'm not saying we need to lose any of the charm that is Jumpgate Classic in Jumpgate Evolution but I would LOVE to see PvE taken more seriously this time around. The way "instances" are set up in WoW would be relatively simple to incorporate into Jumpgate Evolution. Example below (only an example): Let's say your squad has a scheduled Raid on a Raid level 1 Flux infestation which is located 3 jumps into Flux space. Once the wing reaches the jumpgate leading to the infestation it creates a separate "instance" of that infestion just for that wing (must assume ability to group many players under a single wing such as Raid groups in WoW). This allows your wing of 20 or 30 players to make a massive assault on a major Flux infestation but because it is "instanced" a different squad would be able to enter their own instance of the infestation with their wing exactly the same way instances work in WoW. The benefits would be: 1.) Provide combat and team oriented players a viable alternative to pure PvP. 2.) Provide rewards equal to conducting major economic or PvP actions such as improved reputation with certain factions, TRI paid cash sums, and perhaps some rare artifacts. 3.) "Instances" would be put on a timer so everyone who has jumped into the instance would be stuck with that version of it (win or lose) for a week before the instance is reset for him/her. This allows reattempts within that week and also prevents overfarming. 4.) "Instances" allow more than that one squad or wing to make the assault and receive the pleasure and benefits. 5.) These instances could also begin by sending in a Scout or Ranger ship to scan the facilities to determine what type of weapons need to be brought this time to the instance (assuming some randomness in the encounter). This makes Scouting a more viable play option and needed skill for Jumpgate Evolution as well. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm not trying to make Jumpgate Evolution like WoW by any means. I hate gear based games and love the focus on flight that Jumpgate has but I just think that PvE could be expanded upon SO much more than it is and it would improve the player base of the game to boot. Anvil


	Sephiroth Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 500	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat I really don't think we need WoW in space. Playing through the same instance every time the timer is up is boring.


	netburnr I love everyone Pilot Name: netburnrol Faction: Pirate Joystick: X52 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 2,118	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat While I agree with the sentiment of the thread, I also disagree with instancing normal space. This is a step in the wrong direction imho, and has no place in a persistent online universe. However if there should be a need for instancing, flux space is the only place I would really want this to happen. As far as PvE, I think this is going to be looked at very long and hard by ND, and with the invention of their new AI system, they have an awesome tool at their disposal to really work on that. I agree, fighting the same flux all the time got pretty boring, and unless you were going for a flux medal, there really wasn't any "point" to it all, you never won, just just beat the spawn, and there would be plenty more where that came from. Now they have the ability to have other AIs, which I think is going to be extremely interesting, like I've said many times, I'm looking forward to fighting off AI controlled "enforcers" in my pirate account.


	netburnr I love everyone Pilot Name: netburnrol Faction: Pirate Joystick: X52 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 2,118	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat Instead of us rehashing the whole instances debate, why dont you use the search feature and search that word and see whats already been said, and reply to those threads.


	Badger Member Faction: None Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 153	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat I'm gonna join this love-fest. I hope there's enough massage oil and marshmallows to go around! I'm quite uncertain about instancing. I agree that it is a powerful tool...but it does a serious injury to game-wide continuity. "I just blew up an enormous flux base" "You mean the one I'm just heading off to fight? How was it?" I think that dynamic encounters and intelligent AI are vastly preferable to farmable raid points. Furthermore, if ND wants to have Flux bases for us to attack, then why do they need to instance them? Just have them pop up every once in a while, and let us find them for ourselves. A player-organized impromptu raid on a base which, once destroyed, will have a marked influence on flux activity in the area, is going to be way more satisfying than just finishing an instance knowing that you haven't really altered the world at all. Finally, and I think this is perhaps the most important point, Thin Mints are the only cookie. All other cookies lack the true cookie-fu.


	netburnr I love everyone Pilot Name: netburnrol Faction: Pirate Joystick: X52 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 2,118	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat Well if you want to only have a thread with you and Seph in it, be my guest. Also, I was the only person to even come up with any constructive criticism in the first place.


	netburnr I love everyone Pilot Name: netburnrol Faction: Pirate Joystick: X52 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin Posts: 2,118	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat Now we are talking. See you didn't need my creative juice (wow that sounds dirty). I like the idea of massive space battles including AI versus AI with the assistance of players, it will definitly allow ND to have the "massive space battles" that they want! As far as the flux massive ship, it sounds very similar to "infestations" in Jumpgate Classic


	Jonboy Member Pilot Name: Jonboy Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 314	Re: PVE, PVP, and Non-Combat Here's the thread on instances: Intances in JGE?? It even has comments by Scorch. ====== I personally hate it when people say 'you can just spawn a random sector and random enemies.' Blizzard employs a large number of people to design and test new sectors to make sure they are appropriate and balanced. Random isn't even remotely useful. ====== Otherwise, yes. new PvE ideas are essential to Jumpgate Evolution's success.