[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Tstrike3

If you want to play in your own space, go play EvE.

As per usual I feel my point is missed. I have no demented twist on reality where I imagine that all pvp'ers are closet-griefers. I would in fact say the opposite and defend that most if not all current pvp squads are far far far from that pigeon hole description.
However, I for one do not imagine with some rose tinted glasses that a game can be self governing by player actions alone, instead I think that scenario is impossible, too slow to react and impotent. And I think that the potential damage that could be caused to a games reputation by just 1 group of players intent on mischief over the course of a single weekend in a tagless, weapons free environment would do great harm to new player uptake if not kill it once word of mouth spread.

To calls for 'If you want to play in your own space, go play EvE', pure idiocy on every level.

[Lordopic]

Originally Posted by Algore

I wonder what will be the main thing to kill off Jumpgate in your next weekly post Trit, I'm finding it hard to keep up.

Regards
Al

Im sure he has many more bouncing around in that big ole empty void of a brain box.

I know lets take out the AI.

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Algore

I wonder what will be the main thing to kill off Jumpgate in your next weekly post Trit, I'm finding it hard to keep up.

Regards
Al

I doubt you'd disagree that these current bounty/military rules have done far more to hinder gameplay then to help it.

Originally Posted by Lordopic

Im sure he has many more bouncing around in that big ole empty void of a brain box.

I know lets take out the AI.

More personal insults from Lordopic. You're lucky I have far too much maturity and respect for JumpDemon to turn this forum into our own personal sandbox, or else i'd give you a sound verbal thrashing that would surely cause you to slit your own wrists in despair.

[Wild_Bill]

Tritian, I for one would not chose to play in your game. I've stuck this one out from retail to the current and intend to be there in Jumpgate Evolution as well. IF it should turn out to be the PvPers wet dream you invision, where there are NO NON-COMBATANTS, I won't be there long. Simple as that. I personally have felt safer under the current MT situation than at any time since most of the OAS squad went elsewhere.

I realize I'm getting pretty polorized on this issue and I apologize if I'm sounding unreasonable. I do not enjoy running around with a target painted on my back. I want to KNOW where the danger is and be able to chose it or avoid it. I don't want to have to flinch every time I see a warship on my radar. Perhaps it's you Tritian, Seph, Tstrike and others who need to look for another game. One where there are endless stocks of ships & equipment with no need for mining, hauling, producing or stocking just an endless Space Opera Valhalla where all a PvPer has to do is launch and shoot thing until he's shot down. Then go back, rinse & repeat. Everyone's a target; everyone's a threat. I'm glad that sounds like fun to you. Don't do anything for me.

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Perhaps it's you Tritian, Seph, Tstrike and others who need to look for another game. One where there are endless stocks of ships & equipment with no need for mining, hauling, producing or stocking just an endless Space Opera Valhalla where all a PvPer has to do is launch and shoot thing until he's shot down. Then go back, rinse & repeat. Everyone's a target; everyone's a threat. I'm glad that sounds like fun to you. Don't do anything for me.

Yes WB, because me, Seph, and Tstrike want exactly such a game as you just described.

That arguement is a sophism, and you know it. I'm seeking codependency. I want the Haulers and Miners to need the PvP'ers as much as the PvP'ers need the Haulers and Miners. That's what Jumpgate used to be about. It's this type of Yin/Yang relationship that made Jumpgate a great game, before it was corrupted by the whiny vocal carebear minority, which you are very much part of.

This game was marketted as a game where you could do anything, be any type of person you wanted, wether it was a mercenary, factional fighter, hauler, pirate, miner, whatever! The game as it is now is NOT THAT GAME. It's changed. Now, all you can be is a factional fighter, hauler, or miner. The reason for this change is all the artificial hard coded rules that have been implemented to appease people like YOU. These rules make YOU safe, at the expense of the rest of the players freedom to RP what they wish.

You've killed the pirates. Dead.

You've killed the mercenaries. Dead.

You've killed every possible profession that makes this game balanced. And now that you, and people like you, have completely NEUTERED jumpgate, you now tell me to leave. That there is no place for me anymore.

Without the bad guys, Jumpgate is just a first person perspective Eve. You've killed the bad guys by making ND place these ridiculous bounty and pvp rules and demerits. Now its impossible for people to RP anything other then what the carebears deem appropriate. Perhaps my Jumpgate is dead now, but only because it's been corrupted by the the likes of you.

[Mickey_D]

Trit, you know mr as Sylvester/nanotech. You know I'm not vehemently opposed to any of your ideas/thoughts, but please try to look at it from the other side of the coin:

Where's -=MACK=-? Where's G-O-D? Where's MEC? Ever wonder why? (IMHO) it's because the haulers/miners felt that ND were only listening to the PvP crowd and leaving the "peaceful" squads out there to dry.

Everyone keeps saying "Get an escort" when it comes to doing non-PvP activities. I've tried. Many, many times. 99.9% of the time I'm either blown off or told that there's nobody currently available. Only very recently have I had the availability of an escort from Tstrike, Mike21 and the rest when I was hauling. When I was playing on the EU server, the prospect of finding an escort was laughable. To the point of actually getting laughed at when one was requested.

So I shrug and leave the equipment/commods that the PvP'ers need to continue fighting right where they are and go do something else. The little amount of time I have to play on a day to day basis lately has been devoted to rather selfish pursuits and I've been doing almost no hauling. For a dedicated trucker like myself, that should tell you something. In the current universe the desperate need for truckers should be of paramount concern for everyone concerned. The current quantities of duelists are due to the efforts of InterOrka, otherwise Me1's little escapade would have left the galaxy without them entirely. There seems to be plenty of flashfires around, though I think that's due to InterOrka again. Sport Plus production appears to e going good, but I think that's due to the almost crippling shortage not too long ago that opened everyone's eyes. But the galaxy-wide shortage of synthetics should be worrying everyone everywhere. Why are there none to be found? It's because people like myself can't be bothered anymore to haul in all the Magnesium, Silicon, Chemicals, Nitrogen and Carbon to Corridor, sit there for hours on end babysitting the station so they don't get burned up in production, then drag them off to the producing stations. Only to have one or two people say thank you and everyone else just go about life as normal, completely oblivious to the HOURS of work that went into making all that stuff. Oh, and if someone comes along and decides I'm a nice juicy target one sector out of that producing station, WTF is to stop them from ruining HOURS of work in a matter of seconds? A bounty? A demerit? Not really a deterrent is it? And not really a balanced reprimand for the destruction of work and time on the hauler's part is it?

Now, if it meant that the person that did the rip had to go out and work their tail off for up to 12 hours to get back to where they were before the rip, then it would be balanced. Oh, and if the ripper lost the credits from a 75% insurance loss on a 10,000,000c shield alone would be balanced as well......

See where I'm coming from? I don't have any squad mates to help escort me. The only people I would want as squad mates are no longer in the game. And sorry to say, most of them would have been absolutely USELESS as escorts. We were only effective in a 16 tow convoy vs one attacker. There were a few in -=MACK=- that were accomplished fighters, but most of us were combat newbs.

Maybe both of our Jumpgate games are dead. You no longer have targets to shoot at, I no longer have the desire to supply you and your targets with equipment. You feel that non-combatants should be viable targets. I feel that we shouldn't be. You feel that haulers should be forced to get escorts, but the very people we would need escorting us are the ones we need escorting FROM!! LOL

[Tritian]

nano, answer this:

1) How many times have you been civripped hauling stuff?
2) If anyone did civrip you, wouldn't it take a mere mention of their names to me or any of countless others I can think of to bring down the wrath of holy justice upon thy civripper?

I'm not understanding how you felt unsafe. A lot of the problem with finding an escort is the fact that 99.999999% of the time, there is no need for escorting! Yes, the bounty system works... TOO WELL. I dont remember the last time I saw the bounty kill message, and I play every day. I'm unaware of any pirates that operate w/ bounties currently, because we all realized that the bounty rules are way to harsh. Liet came back for a couple of weeks and decided that the bounty system was too harsh and left. I barely log on anymore under my Tritian acct because it's not practical to maintain my RP and be a pirate, cause i'd literally be broke in a single day.

Since you dont seem to know the rules of the bounty system, allow me to enlighten you.

1) If you kill someone w/ pirate tags, your PR drops to -120 for that faction.
2) At -120pr, My nix has a 20 million credit bounty. That means when someone kills me, they get 20mil of my money, from my bank acct. PvP'ers dont have a lot of money. This means there is NO BAD GUYS. Period.
3) Bountied pilots position is reported whenever they enter a sector w/ a tuned beacon.
4) Everyone wants 20million credits. There is absolutely no faster way to make money then to kill a pirate. I think Gent30 got 140mil in a couple of hours once just fighting bountied pilots.
5) Each PR mission gives you exactly 1 pr point, even if you have 0 demerits. It's impossible to flux-off your bounty anymore because they removed that. That means you have to work off your bounty in enemy space. Also there is no PR decay.

Ok, now can you imagine how long it takes to work off -120pr, in enemy space, at 1 pr point per mission, all the while your location is being announced over KTRI and you have a 20 million credit bounty? Add to this that you cant defend your bounty against civs without getting bountied further... and you can start to see the endless cycle.

And you think the bounty rules are too lax? Why not have everyone flying around w/ civ chips and be done with it. Because that's effectively what we have now.

[Istanbul]

(M E C is alive and kicking) (or was there some other squad called M E C back in the day that I never heard about?)

Trit, I will not disagree with you that the bounty penalties are too harsh. I agree with Sephiroth that the pirate tag pr decay needs 'tweaking'. I agree with all the civs that it's pretty much a load of bunk that a MIL pilot can go off and whack a civ, whether he really has reason or not, and just get a little demerit out of it. I agree with everyone that there are serious issues on all sides with the current tag system. However, we have basically been alpha testers for GMI's tag ideas. He never had a chance to finish what he invisioned a year ago before he got pulled off for Jumpgate Evolution duties. That's why I said earlier that Jumpgate Evolution needs to start from scratch and build a logical, flexible tag system, and get penalties adjusted in the betas so that they are 'fair and balanced'. (the bounty part i just mentioned now).

[Tim]

Heh.. Nano can't get an escort because escorts don't fly because nobody looks for escorts because escorts don't fly because nobody looks for escorts because escorts don't fly because nobody looks for escorts because escorts don't fly because nobody looks for escorts because my brain just fell out (again).

Also, i'm amazed that the haulers (who run civ) don't think there are enough penalties for civ ripping, and the pvp folks (who don't run civ) think the penalties are too stiff.

I'm not nearly as poetic as these guys, though, so i'll just do this:

Originally Posted by biteme

It's odivious this [civ-ripping] problem will never get solved by game design.

Originally Posted by Ambrosious

To me it's kind of obvious. You decide what you want your game to be and design it to attract the intended audience. What you don't try to do is to satisfy everyone -- and the LAST thing you want to do is to try to satisfy Ambro.

Oh, and this is a good one..

Originally Posted by WileE

Meh. The best thing ND could do now, IMO, is to just come out and say "We are doing this" and let the chips fall where they may. All the debate is doing is further entrenching either side that their way is the only way.

[Wild_Bill]

Tritian, I was merely throwing back in your face what you and other PvPers have said to every "carebear" (GOD I hate that term for PvEers) in the game at one time or another (leave if you don't like it). Other than philosophically I don't have a problem with you. You've never bothered me in game, nor I you. Ask Seph if I did anything against him in space when he flew by me several times with pirate tags and a bounty. Didn't even pass on his location to others. As long as I'm left alone I'm quite happy to leave you alone.

No one wants to keep you from killing other PvPers. I have no problem with you shooting at me if I'm MT or HG or, hell, in a combat ship! (yeah I DO fly them, mostly to flux in, but I fly 'em). What I, and other PvEers, have a problem with is being dragged into a dog-eat-dog, might-makes-right game when we simply aren't interested. Maybe some folks enjoy getting shot at when they are unable to effectively fight back. I'm not. Perhaps that gives them a thrill or a frission of terror. I don't care for the feeling when I'm doing something else. I like everything about Jumpgate that you like, except shooting folks that I KNOW I can beat or that can't fight me back effectively. I don't know how you feel about being shot when you can't shoot back. Unless that's how you feel when you are bountied and running from bounty hunters because you can't afford the pod ride perhaps?

I totally cannot understand your unwillingness to allows others to exist without bowing down to your wish to rip people who are unable to resist you. I do not see the attraction in mugging, robbing or shooting down people who are not only NOT a threat to you, but totally incapable of defeating you with anything other than unbelieveable luck (well, IO's Nuke-the-dupe works well once or twice, ask Liet.. oh wait, he left didn't he?). That's why I argued so strongly for the NPC haulers in another thread. I see something similar is already planned for Jumpgate Evolution.

It's not that I was horribly civ-ripped as a child/newb. Of my 299 pod rides, I doubt as many as a dozen in the past 6 years were honest to god civ-rips. Probably less. Some of them were even deserved, RP-wise. Another dozen or so were cases of it being technically not a civ rip (unreg, temp bounty I didn't know I had, etc). Add in a couple of dozen combat deaths back when my squad was active and the total number of pod rides is still strongly slanted towards PvE and I'm satisfied with that.

I lack the outright skills & ability to deal with you and other PvPers effectively in combat, therefore I wish to minimize hostile contacts between us. And by "us", I mean PvPers and PvEers in general, not you and me personally. I pretty much stay out of unreg and seldom don MT tags or get a bounty.

Lot of people have left the games for all kind of reasons. I don't think there are any stats for why people quit wanting to log in and play or just quit paying. I truely wish there were exit interviews for former players. I do remember plenty of "I quit" messages back in the day. Bet you do too. PvPers left when there was nothing or not enough to shoot at. PvEers left when there was nothing to haul or they got shot at too much or whatever. Point is a lot more folks left than have ever come back.

Tritian only has 1600 hours vs Wild_Bill's 4400 hours in game, yet you've got 160 percent his death stats and over 500 kills vs his 4. 2100 flux to his 17,000. Your gun accuracy is 4% better than his, but his missile stats are 64% to your 22%. I don't know or care about your other accounts. I'm just glad you still play, even if you can't play the way you want to. That's something you and I have in common. We keep playing even when we can't always play the game the way we'd like to.

I think you give me, and people like me, way to much credit for the damaging you feel was done to the game by rule changes and harsher penalties. I feel most of the changes came around because of a desire by the people running the game to cater to the bulk of people who pay to play. The majority wish not to be terrorized by pirates and other griefer play styles. YOU wanted pirate gear and were given it. I didn't ask for traps. I don't normally even use traps (Yeah, I've got 'em in my POS). You asked for a pirate RP and it was constructed. But pirate gear wasn't enough. Stealing involving any risk to you wasn't enough. You just HAD to shoot down helpless civilians. Thus the "harsh" bounties. Same with Liet. He just could not resist shooting down folks that didn't agree with him once he ran out of real warriors to fight.

I have very little to do with the rules of the game or how they evolved. I've never complained directly to any GM about ANY player or play-style in game. I have spoken out strongly on the forums & in-game about what I like and what I don't like. I truely wish some form of compromise could be reached that would allow you to slaughter defenseless opponents, yet leave me (and others who feel like I do) free to encounter those dangers in game we choose to encounter by the choices we make in game and not just because we ran into someone who could, and wanted to, shoot us down "just because" we were there.

The escort issue has been endlessly regurgitated like a cow chewing its cud. Perhaps in Jumpgate Evolution there will be escort missions and NPC escorters available 24/7/365. Lord knows that's not the current case, nor has it been in many a long year.