[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Tritian, I understand you as well as Vorlon or dailatron seem to. I want the game to make it expensive to civ rip non-combat ships. I want the game to discourage such activities. No more. No less.

I'm sorry your RP requires you to rip people who are unwilling or unable to give you effective resistance rather than just give in to your mugging/ robbery attempt. Insight burglary requires TALENT to a much greater degree than "Pay Or Die". The risk of sucking up a trap and going BOOM requires more risk taking than just shooting at a helpless miner, hauler, etc who declines to just "give me the damn money!" . Have I mistated the issues?

No amount of reading, remembering or anything else will allow me to understand your split personality on the "I have no desire to kill people who cant fight back. NONE. ZERO. NADA. ZILCH " and then turn around and tell me it's necessary to shoot down many civs so people will fear you and just "give me the damn money!" You don't want to shoot civs? Do like I do and don't shoot them then.

I have read your new thread on the bounty system and posted my comments there. Hell, I even agree with and like most of it. You did good. Much better than here. The problem is not with the tag system or the bounty system. The problem is players who's RP consistently requires them to shoot down folks who can't effectively fight back.

No, I dont enjoy shooting down civs. Although, I will do it. I enjoy the reputation I build from the bounty.

That said... I wouldn't say I feel that bad about shooting down civs. I'm kinda impartial to it... dispassionate. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I cant grasp what's so horrible about being shot down as a civ.

Maybe you can help me here. I've been shot down w/ a 20million credit bounty before, having only 15million credits left in my bank account. That sucked, but I quickly got over it. As a civilian, you have your ship fully insured with great insurance ratings like 9.5 and higher, full insurance on your cargo aswell, and that's even true for hauling equipment now. So really... do you lose ANY money besides tax?

Sure... you loose a little bit of time. And perhaps it sucks if you cant find freighter equipment at the place you end up at... but obviously it doesn't suck enough to the point where you'd pay the pirate 100k.

So what exactly is the big deal again? I dont understand why civripping is so horrible.... i just dont understand.

Tritian the character doesn't mine. However, on every one of my other accounts I mine and even haul occasionally. When I mine or haul, i do so w/ military tags. I've been shot down while mining, once. Normally, other MT's don't bother me, or they pirate me and I pay if the amount is reasonable. I just dont understand what is so horrible about it. Even if you get civripped... you just reequip and launch again right?

You might mention arties... but if you have expensive arties onboard... wouldn't it be logical to pay the 100k PoD?

Maybe you want to stick to your guns, and I respect that. However, i'm of the opinion that you should choose your battles wisely. And choosing to fight a pirate in your HM doesn't have a high probability of success.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Tritian

No, I dont enjoy shooting down civs. Although, I will do it. I enjoy the reputation I build from the bounty.

....

Maybe you want to stick to your guns, and I respect that. However, i'm of the opinion that you should choose your battles wisely. And choosing to fight a pirate in your HM doesn't have a high probability of success.

One might compare being PoD'd to being bounty-hunted by civs. For the one being attacked, it's loose-loose, and a fairly dishonorable act for the attacker. It's been mentioned a few times that bounty hunting while civ is uncool. No argument here.. but then, I also think PoD's are uncool, for the same reason. No honor, and it's loose-loose for the victim.

Heh, I suppose if the pirates come out and start encouraging civ bounty hunters as a way to increase excitement for the bountied pilots, then the haulers should start encouraging PoD's as a way to increase excitement for the haulers. Until that happens, though...

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Tim

One might compare being PoD'd to being bounty-hunted by civs. For the one being attacked, it's loose-loose, and a fairly dishonorable act for the attacker. It's been mentioned a few times that bounty hunting while civ is uncool. No argument here.. but then, I also think PoD's are uncool, for the same reason. No honor, and it's loose-loose for the victim.

Heh, I suppose if the pirates come out and start encouraging civ bounty hunters as a way to increase excitement for the bountied pilots, then the haulers should start encouraging PoD's as a way to increase excitement for the haulers. Until that happens, though...

Hmm, I dont think that anology quite jives.

1) Contrary to popular belief, non-combat ships CAN fight back, and often do. I've been killed by non-combat vessels i've tried to PoD many times, so they arent completely defenseless. A well placed nuke or MS spam can kill just about anything.
2) Pirates w/ the current bounty system have WAY more to lose by being downed by a civ bounty hunter then vice versa. Most haulers and miners have cargo insurance, and near-perfect insurance ratings. Like I said before... try losing 20million credits from dieing and you might have a point.

[dailatron]

Originally Posted by Tritian

Like I said before... try losing 20million credits from dieing and you might have a point.

Im sorry but you cant really be asking for sympathy for having a bounty because you civ ripped some one.

The thing is, with the current system you dont have to have a crazy bounty you can work every rip off and then go rip again. If you expect to be able to rip without much consequence, and then keep on ripping you are delusional Im afraid.

Stick to unreg and you wont get bounties.

Actualy I remember from freelancer you could pay off a dodgy representative of a company or faction and they would sort your rep out for you.

Maybe you should speak to Jargo, Solpain or Marcus Cole and ask them how they get away with it.

[SingleShot]

Originally Posted by Tritian

Hmm, I dont think that anology quite jives.

1) Contrary to popular belief, non-combat ships CAN fight back, and often do. I've been killed by non-combat vessels i've tried to PoD many times, so they arent completely defenseless. A well placed nuke or MS spam can kill just about anything.
2) Pirates w/ the current bounty system have WAY more to lose by being downed by a civ bounty hunter then vice versa. Most haulers and miners have cargo insurance, and near-perfect insurance ratings. Like I said before... try losing 20million credits from dieing and you might have a point.

The odds of a bountied pilot escaping the lose/lose scenario by fleeing are far higher than someone in a non-combat ship (read: brick) doing the same by fleeing, or catching the miracle MS spam. Will two MS actually kill a fighter, by the way?


It is a good analogy. Both are non-consentualish lose/lose situations for the "victim" that add "excitment"
Of course, the bountied pilot has opted into the situation of being bountied, but I guess you can say the civ opted in when they dared play Jumpgate?

[vorlon31]

Originally Posted by Tritian

Hmm, I dont think that anology quite jives.

It fits perfectly as far as I can see. I see also where it doesn't suit your own point of view but it is correct in what it says.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by SingleShot

... I guess you can say the civ opted in when they dared play Jumpgate?

heh.

[Wild_Bill]

Tritian, the best I can explain it is this way. Non-consentual combat means the aggressor is forcing a losing fight on the victim. THAT's what I have a problem with. Not me hauling MT and getting shot down. I chose to go MT. Not getting pirated or shot down in unreg. I chose to go through unreg. What your RP proposes though, is that I am in danger at all times and in all places OF YOUR CHOOSING. Your chosen RP completely deprives me of the ability to set my own comfortable level of danger/risk in-game. It's all about the non-consentual part of it.

[Tritian]

I dunno. I still dont see what's so horrible about being civripped. Nothing you guys have said really makes much sense to me.

WB, You mention the unconditional PvP factor as being the major thing why civrips are bad for the victim. Fact is, Jumpgate wouldn't be the same game without non-consensual PvP. A lot of people play this game because of the risks involves and the fact that there isn't some hardcoded mechanism protecting people at all times. It allows for RP and a more realistic environment.

Since you guys cant seem to come up with any TANGIBLE reason why it's so horrible to be civripped... I must stick to my original theory that you guys are just way to sensitive. Way way way too sensitive.

My suggestion would be, next time you guys are civripped, take a step back and realize what you've actually lost. Is it so horrible? I think not.

[Wild_Bill]

Your professed RP self-justifies you being a bully in-game. I don't agree with the mind set that says it is okay to destroy what someone else has created by their own effort. I do not think you have a greater right to my property or credits simply because you have a greater power to take than I have to preserve. Your world view allows you to "force your RP on me" (gotta love that cliche`) while my world view merely penalizes you severely for doing so but does not prevent it in absolute terms.

In the real world there are militaries, state and local police and sheriff's deputies to help keep me safe, but even with all that, there are places I would not go at certain times of the late evening or night. In Jumpgate Classic there is only the bounty penalties which you find so harsh. What I want is some mechanism in game that allows me to choose the level of danger I deal with in game. I don't really care for the details so much as the result. AI police, combat patrols, enforced safety zones, ruinous bounties, etc are all okay as long as they mean that, like in the real world, if I don't want to be a victim, I don't have to.

I can't remember the last time someone called me "too sensitive", if it's ever even happened before. Most of my co-workers at the police department would hurt themselves laughing at your assessment, but that's okay too.

Our agument is based on a difference in philosophy between us. It absolutely is not personal on my part. I'm not harmed or upset by your point of view at all. I simply don't share your vision of what Jumpgate Classic or Jumpgate Evolution should be. None of what we say here or in-game means anything unless, and until, the game developers say what is going to be done and how they hope to accomplish it. I myself hope they are paying close attention to all the arguments/ discussions and it helps them decide how they want the game to go. I think all of us are interested in finding out their vision. Wanna share Scorch?

[Algore]

I'd say an argument mentioned many many pages back that seems to be conveniently ignored would be a good reason for civripping being a bad thing. The one when someone spends several days mining, producing tier 2's, then 3's, then getting civripped. I'd be pretty peeved if I had spent 10 hours producing only to be civripped by someone who would more than likely have benefitted from what I was actually doing in the first place.
2 MS will not down a Nix 100/100, but will down a Phoon or Tensity iirc. I won't charge you for that piece of info SS.

Regards
Al