[dailatron]

Originally Posted by vorlon31

I think pirates should skulk in unreg, if they operate in reg space then huge bounties come, quite literally, with the territory.

Agreed, and those that dont mind getting civripped can all fly about in unreg, that way we will see those that dont mind getting civ ripped and those that do.

[Wild_Bill]

Istanbul, the idea on Pirate PR decay being relevant to the faction space they are operating in and no PR decay at all in unreg is excellent! Octavia should not care about what a pirate does in Quant, Sol or unreg space as long as Octavian pilots are unmolested.

Tritian, believe it or not, I do NOT support absolute safety for all pilots at all times. Even in the "safest" zone I want players to have the ability to shoot down other players for solid RP, IC or OOC reasons. I just want the penalty for doing so to be high enough and harsh enough to make such a civ-rip a VERY noteworthy occasion, not a general operating principal.

Again going back to the old west analogy, if you commit violent crimes in broad day light on the middle of main street you can expect harsh and immediate response by law enforcement (shoot someone down in station space and expect a high bounty and immediate AI/bounty hunter response). Something on the outskirts of town would get a lesser response (faction space) and something that happens out on the range or in the badlands (unreg) would get even less of a response. Until the late 19th century, early 20th century, short of murder, what you did in one state seldom caused you problems in an adjacent state. Only U.S. Marshalls pursued criminals beyond state lines. Even to this day, if you commit a misdemeanor crime in Abilene, you would be safe from prosecution in Dallas and visa-versa. Murder someone and there's a good chance if you can get to Mexico and you're safe.

Like Vorlon suggested, if you want to be a pirate, hang out in unreg and only molest pilots daring enough to go there.

Seph, I'm glad I was able to provide you with the expected "carebear" response, but a "Win" button is exactly what Tritian seems to want. He's made it abundantly clear he doesn't want to have to go to any trouble to get his credits. He doesn't want to have to chase or fight the civ hauler/miner. He certainly doesn't want to have to civ-rip them, he just wants them to give up their credits at his demand. He doesn't want to have to use any skill or effort to employ a burgler and insight. He doesn't want to risk sucking up a Trap and getting blown up by the helpless hauler. He doesn't want to have to try and shoot down freighters because it's hard for him to do so. He doesn't want to have to fly with crippling bounties for civ-ripping helpless pilots. If that doesn't meet your definition of a "Win" button, I'd like to hear what does. As Vorlon suggests, perhaps Tritian does see civ pilots as being no better than AI victims for his enjoyment.

Jonboy, everything has morals and moral values. Winnie the Pooh, Tele-tubbies, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, the Bible, the Koran, etc. Even comic books are built around moral principles. Coyote and Roadruner, anyone? Good vs Evil is the main theme of nearly everything in life, including games.

Morality is how you treat others. To quote Heinlein, "The only sin is to hurt others unnecessarily; hurting yours self isn't sinful, just stupid". In game, out of game, the morality remains the same. I understand Tritian and others choose to play morally bankrupt characters. I hold no animosity towards the person who plays the character of Tritian or JonBoy or anyone else in game. I may have a problem with your actions and I will definitely judge them on my own moral scale. You don't like my judgements? Leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. That's a hell of a lot better offer than Pay or Die.

The game needs tags or something similar if only to indicate the relative nature of the players involved and to indicate their interactional interests. "Civ", to me, means they don't want to fight. "Pirate" means they wish to hurt others at the pirates' choice or run from those who wish to collect their bounty. MT means they wish to fight other warriors. HG meant they were willing to fight anyone else who wanted to fight. With tags you don't have to know the pilot's reputation, RP or much of anything else. The tags, combined with the ship class, pretty well tell you what that pilot wants to do in-game and what their relative danger to other pilots is. With or without safe zones, bounties, bounty hunters, etc, tags are a good thing.

[daslog]

Originally Posted by Tritian

Sure.

I think peoples actions should have reasonable consequences. People who civ-rip should have reasonable bounties that don't bankrupt them instantly w/ one death. By the same token, I feel people who act in lame ways such as stripping stations, cursing people out over public chat, causing economic havoc similar to Me_1's dualist hording, dumping tons of flux on miners/haulers, etc... should not be 100% immune to reprisal for their actions. Safe zones would allow these people to act lame without fear of reprisal.

I don't see how being able to civ-rip someone solves any of these. Killing a stripper results in the equipment blowing up anyway. Ripping somoene for Cursing over public chat doesn't prevent them from using the chat function, and you can dump flux with any newb ship.

In fact, within the safe zones they can cause all kinds of havoc without anyone able to do anything about it. Imagine someone who hangs out near the safe zone stations and just bumps heavy tows/miners all day into the station, cursing them out over F3, and generally 'griefing' people. Stuff like that becomes possible and common with-in safe zones.

Same as above, ripping someone isn't going to stop any of this.

Also, from an RP perspective, I dislike artificial rules that work contrary to the reality created by the game. If i am firing on someone and they aren't dieing because they have some kind of uber shield within the safe zones, it kills my level of immersion.

That's not how it works in Eve. You can still kill them. It's just that the AI police spawn and kill you.

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by daslog

I don't see how being able to civ-rip someone solves any of these. Killing a stripper results in the equipment blowing up anyway. Ripping somoene for Cursing over public chat doesn't prevent them from using the chat function, and you can dump flux with any newb ship.

Hmm, I completely disagree. People who are incredibly lame quickly get a hunted by a large portion of the server. For example, Rollio, Aslan, DireCoyote, Me_1, etc. All the above names got killed over and over again until they eventually left the game or started new characters in secret because their characters were hated so much.

So you see, it does work. Maybe not instantly, but if you are lame enough, the rest of the server can make life on your very difficult. It's about DISCOURAGING such lame activities. Safe zone's would make that impossible..

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Seph, I'm glad I was able to provide you with the expected "carebear" response, but a "Win" button is exactly what Tritian seems to want. He's made it abundantly clear he doesn't want to have to go to any trouble to get his credits. He doesn't want to have to chase or fight the civ hauler/miner. He certainly doesn't want to have to civ-rip them, he just wants them to give up their credits at his demand. He doesn't want to have to use any skill or effort to employ a burgler and insight. He doesn't want to risk sucking up a Trap and getting blown up by the helpless hauler. He doesn't want to have to try and shoot down freighters because it's hard for him to do so. He doesn't want to have to fly with crippling bounties for civ-ripping helpless pilots. If that doesn't meet your definition of a "Win" button, I'd like to hear what does. As Vorlon suggests, perhaps Tritian does see civ pilots as being no better than AI victims for his enjoyment.

HAH! If you knew how difficult it was to make a living as a PoD pirate, you'd quickly see that there is absolutely no win button involved. Making cash is way harder then any mining, flux hunting, or hauling could possibly ever be. You guys dont loss 7mil to 20mil when you die, and only make 100k - 1mil per PoD'ie who actually pays. Infact, i'd say I pirate because of the exact OPPOSITE of a win button. I do it because it's the most challenging aspect of the entire game. It's as far from a win button as you could possibly get.

Hell, it's a loss button! I've lost countless millions. I'd be broke and flying an aptyrex right now if Liet didn't float me some cash.

Oh, and you seem to have some warped view on burglar/insight piracy. If you think that involves more skill then PoD'ing you are clearly insane. How can you, as an insight pirate, use skill to prevent being killed by a trap? It's impossible. Everyone hauls worthless crap, and they dont fill their entire cargo hold w/ the useless crap either. Since scanners dont detect traps, insight pirates are just cannon fodder for the haulers.

Just like PoD pirates are cannon fodder for freighters. You could be lobotomized and still kill a pirate EASILY with a freighter. I listed several ways above, but everyone seems to have conveniently skipped that post.

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

The game needs tags or something similar if only to indicate the relative nature of the players involved and to indicate their interactional interests. "Civ", to me, means they don't want to fight. "Pirate" means they wish to hurt others at the pirates' choice or run from those who wish to collect their bounty. MT means they wish to fight other warriors. HG meant they were willing to fight anyone else who wanted to fight. With tags you don't have to know the pilot's reputation, RP or much of anything else. The tags, combined with the ship class, pretty well tell you what that pilot wants to do in-game and what their relative danger to other pilots is. With or without safe zones, bounties, bounty hunters, etc, tags are a good thing.

I dont really see the purpose of identifying who's haulers and who's fighters and who's pirates. I think peoples reputations should do that, and their ship class. Does it matter if i'm mining civ or MT? I'm still mining in a Miner.

The registry system gives a false sense of security to people like you. Then when you get killed in this VIDEO GAME which is supposed to be dangerous, you guys WHINE and WHINE that your 'security blanket' didn't protect you enough. That is another one of the inherent design flaws in the registry system.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Tritian

... Then when you get killed in this VIDEO GAME which is supposed to be dangerous, ...

actually, it's supposed to be fun.. hence that whole 'game' thing that you were nice enough to capitalize for us.

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Tim

actually, it's supposed to be fun.. hence that whole 'game' thing that you were nice enough to capitalize for us.

In any game, you have your lows, and thats how you appreciate the highs. Otherwise, every game would just say "You Win!" when you start it up. I honestly cant believe I have to explain this stuff over and over again. It seems so basic to me.

You play a game for the challenge. There is no challenge if you never die, if you are 100% safe at all times. It's not even a game at that point. It's a chore.

[Istanbul]

You seem to skip the posts where we say you have to be a lobotomized pirate to actually get blown up by a freighter. You have every bit of maneuvering advantage possible. Set your radar to all and if you see a flashing yellow dot get the heck out of range... is it that hard?

[dailatron]

I love the way certain people reply to someone whine about being cannon fodder by saying get an escourt, its sposed to be an MMO. And then in the same breath whine about how hard it is being a lone pirate.

About the bounty harshness aswell. There is the /vouch system which reduces the harshness, but that would involve the rippers actualy having friends ingame.

[JoCool]

There should be security based on your location, not based on what tag you choose by clicking a simple button before launch. I call the former 'sandbox system'. There can be sandboxes for girls, shared sandboxes, and those for boys.

To fortify this, remember that gamers who like combat have always been the great majority in the internet. What games are sold best, what games are most played?

[dailatron]

Originally Posted by JoCool

There should be security based on your location, not based on what tag you choose by clicking a simple button before launch. I call the former 'sandbox system'. There can be sandboxes for girls, shared sandboxes, and those for boys.

To fortify this, remember that gamers who like combat have always been the great majority in the internet. What games are sold best, what games are most played?

Err The Sims ?. Security sectors wont please the OP as he wants to shoot who he wants, when he wants and where he wants.

But most agree about sector security in some way, except those that want to shoot people.