[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Istanbul

I don't recall seeing in any of WBs posts that he said that YOU should burgle pirate. I only saw him say that he feels that it requires more skill and courage for the very reasons you mentioned above. As for nukes, I've told you several times now how to not get killed by them. I doubt you'd even really need an FF to get out of range anyways as it's not like they blow up the instant they're fired.

Anyways, I'm certainly willing to reserve judgement on any tag system or lack thereof implemented in Jumpgate Evolution until I see it firsthand. The current system is what it is and I don't forsee it changing so complaining about it ad nauseum can't really be helping much more than our first go rounds.

Istanbul... AVOIDANCE isn't the damn issue. The issue is you need to get close to the freighter in order to pirate it. If you cant get close, you cant be effective. Wether your goal is to extort money or leech cargo.

And you wont see any indicator on your radar, or atleast not for any escapable length of time, if the freighter pilot releases the nuke close to the object he's targetting, such as a jumpgate.

Infact, tests I just conducted in the simulator seem to indicate that there is no arming time for a nuke. Meaning you can fire a nuke at 200m from the jumpgate and it blows up instantly. I hope that's not true in real space.

Anyway, the entire point of the nuke debate is that freighters are invulnerable to the actions of the other pilots. A pirate cant get close to a freighter. If it does, it has to contend with nukes. If it gets past the nukes, it still wont be able to kill the freighter. Not without another pirate handy. That's the core of the problem.

[Lordopic]

This freighter and Nuke thing is still getting me.

A Nuke has a splash range of 2k a Ammo Nix or Dagon or any other Fighter has a range of 4.5. ( a ammo dragon can kill freighter, I know i have had it down to me, and im sure a Nix shouldn’t have too much trouble.)

Stay over 2k away you can still hit said freighter who fires his Nukes if indeed he is carrying them, then when you have stayed out of harms way move in for the kill.

But then adding into the gate jumping, do you follow the freighter through the gate and he smacks you with a nuke as you come in, how long do you wait before you jump, has he moved off from the gate.

I suppose the way to do it is get them mid flight or over 2k from the gates on their approach to the next gate.

No mans land enough time to call pay or die, now where for him/her to Nuke you and more than enough time to down the uncooperative bugger if he/she don’t pay.

Hey being a rat is Childs play I might try it.

[Algore]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

To use the Insight you have to be within 250k range.

That would be 250d, not k m8

There are several things that could be changed for insight/burglar piracy to make it more viable, and several changes that were made years ago that reduced it's attractiveness.
Firstly, the traps; one trap kill is a joke. One trap disabling(even partially) the pirate would be more sensible. There has been many discussions on this.
Secondly, the possible profit is too low on non equipment items. Iirc correctly one of the biproducts of removing farming was vastly reducing the cost of any commods that could be farmed. Ignoring mats, even commods such as electronics used to be worth circa 200k. Their worth was nerfed to reduce the profit potential from farming, which in turn with the introduction of insight pirating in later patches meant lower returns were possible.
The economy being crap now means there are less haulers. Less haulers to pirate, and lower returns when successfully pirating someone, within the game mechanics.
Thirdly, the bounty system. I personally see the size of bounties disproportionate to the reward. The same as reward for missions to unreg, the same for taking any real sort of risk in virtually any aspect of the game. If you do something riske, you should expect more reward. As things stand a bounty means financial ruin if it comes as part of your role.

I don't think removing the tag system would fix any of this. Everything needs to be looked at and balanced. From the ground up, or market and mission model up.
I don't like POD pirates, never have. I don't see it as piracy, I see it as extorsion at best, bullying at worst. That being said it is clear something needs to be done. But the whole picture needs to be looked at from a risk:reward POV.
I assume this is being looked at now, and is what the beta will be for to test on a grander scale.

Regards
Al

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Lordopic

This freighter and Nuke thing is still getting me.

A Nuke has a splash range of 2k a Ammo Nix or Dagon or any other Fighter has a range of 4.5. ( a ammo dragon can kill freighter, I know i have had it down to me, and im sure a Nix shouldn’t have too much trouble.)

Stay over 2k away you can still hit said freighter who fires his Nukes if indeed he is carrying them, then when you have stayed out of harms way move in for the kill.

But then adding into the gate jumping, do you follow the freighter through the gate and he smacks you with a nuke as you come in, how long do you wait before you jump, has he moved off from the gate.

I suppose the way to do it is get them mid flight or over 2k from the gates on their approach to the next gate.

No mans land enough time to call pay or die, now where for him/her to Nuke you and more than enough time to down the uncooperative bugger if he/she don’t pay.

Hey being a rat is Childs play I might try it.

... well i'm glad you had a eureka momment and finally see the problem. However, your 'solution' doesn't quite work in reality. Most sectors aren't big enough to kill a freighter by the time they can multiple FF to the next gate, at which point they are off limits by playing gate games and/or nuking and killing you.

So in reality, there are only a few sectors you can accomplish this in. The Gurge/Oct Shore and Zealots Refuge being the only ones actually traveled by haulers on a steady basis.

But there is another problem, and that is that their radars can see you before you can see them. So they have a hefty lead on you. That means they can be FF'ing at full speed long before you get to them, unless their happens to be a roid you can hide on that's close enough to the space lanes so that you have a hope of catching up to the freighter before it see's your pirate-tagged ass and starts FF'ing.

So now you have the task of trying to burglar or PoD an FF'ing freighter at full speed before it can get to the other gate and gain it's virtual invulnerability back. It's ridiculous.

Also, as added insult to injury, ammo weapons add hefty to your bounty. So while I said i'd have a 20mil bounty w/ a laser setup, that'd become a 27mil bounty w/ ammo. Reason being an ammo load-out is much more expensive then a laser load-out. The result is, very few people w/ bounties have the luxury of flying with an ammo load-out.

So yeah, i'd *LOVE* to see you become a rat.

Originally Posted by Algore

That would be 250d, not k m8

There are several things that could be changed for insight/burglar piracy to make it more viable, and several changes that were made years ago that reduced it's attractiveness.
Firstly, the traps; one trap kill is a joke. One trap disabling(even partially) the pirate would be more sensible. There has been many discussions on this.
Secondly, the possible profit is too low on non equipment items. Iirc correctly one of the biproducts of removing farming was vastly reducing the cost of any commods that could be farmed. Ignoring mats, even commods such as electronics used to be worth circa 200k. Their worth was nerfed to reduce the profit potential from farming, which in turn with the introduction of insight pirating in later patches meant lower returns were possible.
The economy being crap now means there are less haulers. Less haulers to pirate, and lower returns when successfully pirating someone, within the game mechanics.
Thirdly, the bounty system. I personally see the size of bounties disproportionate to the reward. The same as reward for missions to unreg, the same for taking any real sort of risk in virtually any aspect of the game. If you do something riske, you should expect more reward. As things stand a bounty means financial ruin if it comes as part of your role.

I don't think removing the tag system would fix any of this. Everything needs to be looked at and balanced. From the ground up, or market and mission model up.
I don't like POD pirates, never have. I don't see it as piracy, I see it as extorsion at best, bullying at worst. That being said it is clear something needs to be done. But the whole picture needs to be looked at from a risk:reward POV.
I assume this is being looked at now, and is what the beta will be for to test on a grander scale.

Regards
Al

I completely agree, 100%. And that's what this thread is about. Perhaps I named it wrong w/ saying 'remove the registry system' specifically. It's more of a effort to get the dev's to recognize that all these rules are screwed up and are damaging the game. I'm saying the entire system needs to be redone from the ground up, and that it's so out of wack now, it'd be beneficial just to have it completely removed.

[JoCool]

It is true that the entire system needs to be reworked from scratch.

Regarding the burglar discussion:
Did Scorch say he wanted to take the burglar system into Jumpgate Evolution?

If I die, I want to leave a wreck with a few parts from my ship and cargo that can get looted instead of everything going 'poof'. Then there will be no need for "burglars" nor "traps".

[Zaltys]

Without throwing my POV in either way, I would say that the perception that noone is interested in escorting is almost entirely because there is virtually zero chance of anything dangerous happening to your average hauler. I remember during periods when OV was particularly hated, or in ISU, where escorting became a positive joy - action was nearly guaranteed, and we almost always got our haulers through it .

[Istanbul]

Originally Posted by Tritian

... well i'm glad you had a eureka momment and finally see the problem. However, your 'solution' doesn't quite work in reality. Most sectors aren't big enough to kill a freighter by the time they can multiple FF to the next gate, at which point they are off limits by playing gate games and/or nuking and killing you.

Perhaps you should try pirating freighters that have cargo rather than the empty ones? Most loaded down freighters take several minutes to cross even 30k sectors unless they are hauling something like water or lighter.

Originally Posted by Tritian

But there is another problem, and that is that their radars can see you before you can see them. So they have a hefty lead on you. That means they can be FF'ing at full speed long before you get to them, unless their happens to be a roid you can hide on that's close enough to the space lanes so that you have a hope of catching up to the freighter before it see's your pirate-tagged ass and starts FF'ing.

You're not getting insurance anyways, and octs have power to spare... they make radar reducing ecms you know.

Originally Posted by Tritian

I completely agree, 100%. And that's what this thread is about. Perhaps I named it wrong w/ saying 'remove the registry system' specifically. It's more of a effort to get the dev's to recognize that all these rules are screwed up and are damaging the game. I'm saying the entire system needs to be redone from the ground up, and that it's so out of wack now, it'd be beneficial just to have it completely removed.

I already said that the system needs to be redone from the ground up way back on the first page? Why didn't you say you agreed with me then? The devs are almost certainly not going to do anything to Jumpgate Classic, so why bother saying to remove it if that's what you're talking about?

[Wild_Bill]

Algore, thank you for correctiing my mistake on the "k" and "d" matter. I also agree with your post in total. The risk and reward system is badly out of whack. Why go to unreg if there is no powerful financial reason to do so? I think I may have been to GBS two or three times in 6 years. No real reason to go there for my RP. More high paying cargo missions to unreg would be welcome in the face of higher risks to be found there.

Should traps be a "one-shot BOOM! you're dead"? I don't know, but if nothing else they should give the intended victim enough time to get away or get help. Perhaps disable the pirates guns and engines for several minutes? Don't know. Never used traps for that matter. I paid Unbreakable a POD once during a storm when they spawned a bunch of flux on me. They took care of the flux and left me alone. I've refused to pay PODs several times. Took my pod ride like a good little victim.

I'm quite satisfied with the current civ-rip penalties. They still allow a pilot to civ-rip other pilots, they just make it very expensive to do so. THAT reduces the chance of ME getting ripped "just because" and I prefer it that way. Making the "criminal" pay for his "crimes" out of his own pocket also seems quite sensible to me. It cuts down on recidivism almost as well as capital punishment does. Much better than a civ-chip, safe zone or "carebear" server IMO.

For PvPers the tag system may very well be screwed up and I hope for their enjoyment it gets straightened out in both Jumpgate Classic and Jumpgate Evolution. To me personally the tags work wonderfully as they are in conjunction with the bounty and civ-rip penalties.

Tritian, I honestly don't care about your troubles playing a pirate. Your chosen RP requires victimizing other players. I find that philosophy to be as dispicable in-game as in real life. I get no particular "thrill" in being mugged, stolen from or being cheated in-game or in RL. As to the insight/burlar pirate, I merely feel it requries more skill and courage, and on that scale only it is more admirable. Just like someone who can flip beacons at over 500v while being chased and shot at. Or swam bust solo. Or collect biomass in a LF for that matter. Now THERE's skill and courage for you!

Pointing a combat ship at a helpless miner and saying "Pay Or Die" takes less skill than circle mining. Perhaps there's some skill in picking helpless victims or sneaking up on them or escaping bounty hunters afterward, but the deed itself is deficient in both skill and courage. Like bungee jumping in a wheelchair, I don't think I actually have to do it to figure out it's not something I'd care to do.

I don't think a division of servers into PvP or PvE is a good thing. I don't think absolute invulnerability is any better than total and universal vulnerability. A way to chose the level or degree of your danger/profit would be a much better way than either to me anyway. The PvP and PvE communities have worked together before and I think we can do so again. Is there a place for pirates or other griefer RPs? I don't know, but if there is, I want a mechanism to avoid either one. I want to be able to choose NOT to be the mole in a game of "whack the mole".

[Lordopic]

Originally Posted by Tritian

So yeah, i'd *LOVE* to see you become a rat.

Id be the Dandy Highwayman of the space lanes.

[Tritian]

Originally Posted by Istanbul

Perhaps you should try pirating freighters that have cargo rather than the empty ones? Most loaded down freighters take several minutes to cross even 30k sectors unless they are hauling something like water or lighter.

You'd be surprised how fast those freighters start going when they burn FF's. Also, a lot of the worthless crap freighter pilots have been hauling lately to '
'help the economy' is all lightweight low-cost junk. I'm glad they are hauling it, but of course it doesn't make my job as a pirate any easier. =)

Originally Posted by Istanbul

You're not getting insurance anyways, and octs have power to spare... they make radar reducing ecms you know.

Actually pirates/civrippers do get insurance. It's just overshadowed by the huge bounty costs. Another reason why the system doesn't make sense. Equiping an ECM adds greatly to your bounty aswell.

To give you an idea of how conscious I am about the equipment I fly w/... my nix currently has 4 thorns, a sport plus PP, and a spore capacitor, all to keep down my costs when i die.

Originally Posted by Istanbul

I already said that the system needs to be redone from the ground up way back on the first page? Why didn't you say you agreed with me then? The devs are almost certainly not going to do anything to Jumpgate Classic, so why bother saying to remove it if that's what you're talking about?

This is for Jumpgate Evolution not Jumpgate Classic. Jumpgate Classic is dead. Jumpgate Evolution is the new flavor.

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Tritian, I honestly don't care about your troubles playing a pirate. Your chosen RP requires victimizing other players. I find that philosophy to be as dispicable in-game as in real life. I get no particular "thrill" in being mugged, stolen from or being cheated in-game or in RL. As to the insight/burlar pirate, I merely feel it requries more skill and courage, and on that scale only it is more admirable. Just like someone who can flip beacons at over 500v while being chased and shot at. Or swam bust solo. Or collect biomass in a LF for th