[Injustice]

This will be a combination of different factors affecting how safe zones could work based off of current economic activity. The trick is to make the economic impact complex enough that people will have to think about it, and large scale enough that no one person could effectively tip the balance of war.

Basically, you take the war meter concept and expand upon it so that all faction directed missions will have some impact on thier war/peace standing with the other two factions. If there is support for this concept I can go into more detail but essentially, every mission taken by every pilot has an effect on this standing.

Say, for the sake of argument that the three factions are totally neutral towards each other. So their respective war/peace meters currently show 50% across the board. Each mission completed (or failed) by every pilot will have a small effect on this percentage, excluding missions run from/to same faction stations.

A players level also dictates how much of an impact he or she has on the global war footing of their faction. A level 6 pilot in a shuttle doing tranny missions from Wake to OP would shift his factions meter by a small fraction of a percentage point, while a level 50 Opti flying a freighter hauling 700 units of cargo from SC to 3P would make a much larger dent in said meter, albeit still a fraction of a percentage point.

Okay, now you know how the slider moves, on to what it means when the slider moves far enough in one direction. Again for the sake of argument, lets assume that a disproportionate amount of cargo/transport missions from QC have gone to Sol space rather than Oct space, and nothing has been done by other pilots to compensate for this (i.e. Quant pilots fluxing/mining/surveying in Oct space). As a result, the Quant war meter now shows 58.72% at war with Octavius. Additionally, this percentage is a flat sum of 100%, so the war footing with Solrain is now 41.28%. This change is also universal across the three factions, so Octavius is likewise 58.72% at war with Quantar while being 41.28% (at peace) with Solrain.

The war footing of each faction changes in 5% increments, beginning with 55%, so at 58.72%, the first marker has been crossed. Now, all Oct HF's travelling through Quant space are free game for any Quant pilot that wants to take a crack at them, and vice versa. If the slider advances to 60%+, then the bombers become flagged. And so on and so forth on down the list until even commercial shipping (HM's and frieghters) can't venture into either sides faction space without being in danger.

Now here's where it gets devious. You're probably asking yourselves, why in the world would the Quant hauler crowd purposely choose to go to war with Octavius? Well, just like with the war side of the slider, the peace side of the slider has markers too. For each tick of the slider into the peace category with Solrain, Quant commercial pilots would get a percentage yield bonus on all missions completed that would benefit Sol space. A cargo mission from Corridor to Wake that normally offered 5000 credits per unit at 50% (neutral), would offer 7500 credits per unit at 25% (peaceful). the same bonus goes for tranny/flux/mining/survey missions in Sol space. Likewise the Sols would enjoy these bonuses with BOTH sides for the duration of the conflict.

Over a given amount of time, these bonuses would be subject to limited returns. So after a solid month of the Quants and Octs being at war, the bonuses of being at peace with Solrain would bottom out to a paultry 5% bonus. The bonus timetable would reset whenever the factional warfare meter stabilized to below 55% at war with either side.

The last kink in the chain comes from the actual PvPers themselves. each "legitimate military target" downed by either side would have a stabilizing effect on the war meter, meaning each kill that was made possible by the war meter would move the slider in the opposite direction. For example, five Quant bombers getting shot down in Oct space would negate five Quant haulers running a cargo mission to Sol space. the net result is no change to the factional war meter.

This concept in no way affects unreg or squad-based PvP, and HG/mil tags will still serve the same purpose.

[GrimGriz]

I like actions affecting reputations, but on the whole I'm against logarithmic adjusting of in-game government relationships.

For example, when the Octavians desecrated Io's funeral, I really don't think the quantar government would give a flip if 300 Octs ran mining missions to Tripoint.

However, if you let each individuals actions determine their affiliation over time, you could accomplish similar effects without interfering with individual RP.

[Wild_Bill]

Injustice, I can see how your system would affect the RISKS ships of foreign factions face, but what exactly does it have to do with Safe Zones? To me "Safe Zones" implies a zone or area of safety and safety means not getting shot at in my book. What effect, if any, would it have on Civ/HG/ MT? I always figured MT or HG of hostile factions were fair game, but (to me) non-combat or civ tagged ships were not to be fired upon unless they shot first. It sounds to me like what you are suggesting eliminates any value for tags at all. It would all be relevant to the "war meter".

Also, how does the Safe Zone handle outlaws, pirates, rebels (anti-TRI factions, etc), etc? Would their base faction be the only determinate of their risk or danger under the War Meter system? Would their tags/status increase their danger or would it be determined by their actions? (as in, they are safe, even as pirates, as long as they don't fire on faction ships in faction space).

I am intersted in how your "Safe Zone" implementation would affect pilots with a known hostile intent/record (meaning pirates, civ-rippers (?) or MT pilots who have attacked your shipping).

[ELPIRATA]

I kind of fail to see how this prevents asshatery.... they would still be safe. Also, atm cv missions balance mil missions/actions in the warmeter, it works different I know, but is still balanced (which was one of the reasons why it was so hard for sols and quants to go to war).

Plus, theres another problem. Say theres an asshat in the sols and quants, with your implementation we'd need to hit the level in which we can kill the quant asshat but we'd need to turn the warmeter around so that we can hit the sol asshat.

I prefer as an implementation for safety... lots of gun/turret batteries on station sector space, you can manage to land a shot but the massive ammounts of guns/turrets should dispatch you before you do any damage. Still, leaves options for a big squad to all launch or fire just one shot and still kill the asshat (the whole squad might die after that of course).

I kind of like the idea, but doesnt work much as a safezone implementation.

ELP

[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Wild_Bill

Injustice, I can see how your system would affect the RISKS ships of foreign factions face, but what exactly does it have to do with Safe Zones? To me "Safe Zones" implies a zone or area of safety and safety means not getting shot at in my book. What effect, if any, would it have on Civ/HG/ MT? I always figured MT or HG of hostile factions were fair game, but (to me) non-combat or civ tagged ships were not to be fired upon unless they shot first. It sounds to me like what you are suggesting eliminates any value for tags at all. It would all be relevant to the "war meter".

Also, how does the Safe Zone handle outlaws, pirates, rebels (anti-TRI factions, etc), etc? Would their base faction be the only determinate of their risk or danger under the War Meter system? Would their tags/status increase their danger or would it be determined by their actions? (as in, they are safe, even as pirates, as long as they don't fire on faction ships in faction space).

I am intersted in how your "Safe Zone" implementation would affect pilots with a known hostile intent/record (meaning pirates, civ-rippers (?) or MT pilots who have attacked your shipping).

As far as pirates/civ rippers go, with safe zone implementation, civving can't happen in Jumpgate Evolution due to game mechanics. You can't civ with a civ chip, and pirates (legit pirates, i.e. with tags) would still have bounties. Again, this concept doesn't affect what tags a pilot chooses to fly. If two PvP squads want to slug it out just for kicks, they still have the option to slap on HG tags and slug it out wherever they feel like it. Those who attack civilian shipping could only do so under two circumstances (well, technically three, but I wouldn't count "I forgot to switch tags" as a scenario). Either the hauler(s) in question went into unreg (you still do so at your own peril), or they wandered into enemy faction territory (whichever faction they are hostile with, assuming the war footing is high enough to put their ship in danger).

[project3wc]

Originally Posted by ELPIRATA

I kind of fail to see how this prevents asshatery.... they would still be safe. Also, atm cv missions balance mil missions/actions in the warmeter, it works different I know, but is still balanced (which was one of the reasons why it was so hard for sols and quants to go to war).

Plus, theres another problem. Say theres an asshat in the sols and quants, with your implementation we'd need to hit the level in which we can kill the quant asshat but we'd need to turn the warmeter around so that we can hit the sol asshat.

I prefer as an implementation for safety... lots of gun/turret batteries on station sector space, you can manage to land a shot but the massive ammounts of guns/turrets should dispatch you before you do any damage. Still, leaves options for a big squad to all launch or fire just one shot and still kill the asshat (the whole squad might die after that of course).

I kind of like the idea, but doesnt work much as a safezone implementation.

ELP

asshattery cannot be prevented in an online game, i believe the 17 pages or so of posts said so on the General Forums.

I'd like to see lots of turrets and patrols on Reg space to protect Civs but they shouldnt be invinsible either, with a LARGE enough force a faction should be able to overcome these defenses but it would just be very near damm impossible. as far as a single ship shooting a Civ, they should get a temp bounty and if they manage to get away from all the turrets and patrols into a different sector the bounty would prevent that pilot from docking to faction stations and would still get shot by the patrols and turrets on the sector he escaped to ( in other words, you shoot a civ and the only place you'll be safe for x amount of time would be in unreg space..)

ps. also other players should be able to shoot you while you have that temp bounty on ur head on reg space for shooting a civ in the first place without those getting in trouble for it.

[ELPIRATA]

Asshatery can't be prevented, we know that, but if safezones are implemented, there's not even retribution, which makes it worse.

I disagree on giving noobs invincibility, as long as the noob behaves. We need to protect the experiences of newcomers and invincibility to a degree... can be helpful in this case. The problem while they level up is that we allow them to be junior asshaters, but eventually payback may come when invincibility wears off. Currently in Jumpgate Classic... a noobs protection goes off if he goes MT or fires at another pilot, meanwhile, the uber noob shield protects him/her.

I agree on the AI patrols thing, but honestly... if AI defenders going to be well communicated, then even leaving reg can be a feat. The point is that noobs should be protected, but informed of their 'godlike' status and that the status will wear off with time and leveling (just in case they try to pull a Liet move - as he doesnt like to lose his Vendictor rank ).

I like IJ's warmeter idea on that at a given moment, even the current enemy civilian tows can be a target, which should be logical. This will, of course, force ND to put broadcast mechanisms so that these tows heading into enemy territory for a profit run.. know they can be shot down beforehand, not just a few klicks before going into enemy reg space.

Anyways, we're still too soon to be making 'decisions' like these. Would love to see what ND is going for and work from there.

ELP

[Tstrike3]

I sincerely think that IJ is clearly onto something here.... Since the GM's still have control of the war meter to allow for RP events, IJ's proposal is the most comprehensive and well thought out I have seen in some time... If I read IJ's proposal correctly, our non-combatant folks have the ability to influence ongoing politics between the 5 factions...

IJ,

So what you are proposing is that for every significant undertaking within Jumpgate Evolution (missions, mining, and war), there is a direct impact to the politics of a given faction. If that is so, then automation should change the DEFCON status of various Safe Zones... If you don't mind, I would like to take your proposal and go one step further.

I would like the beacon technology to have a say and a use in affecting the DEFCON status of certain safe zones.... (before everyone starts crying, hear me out).

Keeping IJ's proposal in mind, keeping beacons tuned within your home faction can afford safe zones within your faction space to maintain a level of security (drones, AI patrols) and EARLY Warning... For example, keeping Greater Locks beacon tuned Solrain would: 1) Raise Safe Zone DEFCON when outlaws/bountied pilots arrive, 2) Raise Safe Zone DEFCON when enemy combat ships are in space, and 3)Raise Safe Zone DEFCON when an unusal amount of space traffic...

Now this maybe cannot be coded, but the beacons should serve as prime intelligence tools for Faction seniority/leadership (Level 49/50).

If nothing more this advanced notification could be a nuiscance; however, if you think about it, this keeps and regulates the level of security within a given safe zone...

Let's use Liet (he seems to be a favorite of ours)... Our good Octavian Vindicator has a -90 PR with Quantar and decides to pay the rocklickers by visiting Ring View to stir up trouble. His entry into Q Space with Ring View properly tuned would send the Station sections into a DEFCON 2 posture. However if Liet had been -122, the Station sections (assumed to be safe zones) would be at DEFCON 1. That keeps and protects folks from being pirate ganked in their safe zones for the most part and Liet aint that stupid to wander into a bonafide hardsite.

For the military/HG application (cant we just go back to HG?), an HG/military invasion force led by OV into Sol space via Greater Locks with that Beacon tuned Blue would heightened a DEFCON 4 for the safe zones thus keeping the station sector shennigans out and letting peaceful activities within.

In sum.... Pirates and Enemy pilots should affect the defensive posture Safe Zones, the War Meter affects the overall political standing of factions.

IJ?

[Wild_Bill]

Man TStrike, I like your modification of IJ's idea! Beacons SHOULD be important and having a tuned beacon affect the DEFCON status makes excellent sense to me. Likewise, were I a hostile MT/HG or Pirate/ Outlaw/ Rebel and flipped the beacon then I would expect THAT to increase the factional DEFCON but the loss of the beacon would also eliminate the MT's ability to get information on activities in that sector.

I also think the beacons should trigger a KTRI-like banner message to MT/HG pilots when a hostile faction MT entered a sector with a faction tuned beacon "Warning Hostile MT presence in Greater Locks". Then an Opti could do a MT map and get a read-out on the number of hostile pilots in that sector. A MT scout/ranger in the same sector would allow give the MT Opti the squad affiliation and ship-types involved in the incursion.

A similar warning would go out to all faction ships when a Pirate/Outlaw/ Rebel tagged pilot enters a faction sector with a tuned beacon. IF there is a Pirate/Outlaw/Rebel BCU then P/O/R tuned beacons in unreg could give incursion information to pilots with the P/O/R tags or even commercial shipping entering the sector. (similar to what we already get on bountied pilots when they enter a tuned beacon sector or when a swarm enteres a sector). The technique already exists, these are just modifications to it.

Which brings up the idea of a ECM modex to "fool" the beacons as to your registry or a model for commercial vessels to keep their info private from P/O/R tagged pilots. Thus a cloaked vessel entered a faction-tuned beacon sector would only generate a message that a vessel had entered the sector but would give no registery information at all. (sort of like what the flux get now when a ship enters a sector and all the little fluxies head for that gate/pilot).

What about a modex that would allow a pilot to "ping" the beacon and get a readout of ships in sector? A pilot with this modex would get a readout of commercial/combat ships within 100,000d of the beacon (makes sense that a beacon-based radar would have greater range than a ship based radar). A roided ship would be no more visible to the beacon than to a ship's radar though. The ship with the modex would have to be within same 100,000d range of the beacon or possibly only 50,000d range?

[Injustice]

Originally Posted by Tstrike3

I sincerely think that IJ is clearly onto something here.... Since the GM's still have control of the war meter to allow for RP events, IJ's proposal is the most comprehensive and well thought out I have seen in some time... If I read IJ's proposal correctly, our non-combatant folks have the ability to influence ongoing politics between the 5 factions...

IJ,

So what you are proposing is that for every significant undertaking within Jumpgate Evolution (missions, mining, and war), there is a direct impact to the politics of a given faction. If that is so, then automation should change the DEFCON status of various Safe Zones... If you don't mind, I would like to take your proposal and go one step further.

I would like the beacon technology to have a say and a use in affecting the DEFCON status of certain safe zones.... (before everyone starts crying, hear me out).

Keeping IJ's proposal in mind, keeping beacons tuned within your home faction can afford safe zones within your faction space to maintain a level of security (drones, AI patrols) and EARLY Warning... For example, keeping Greater Locks beacon tuned Solrain would: 1) Raise Safe Zone DEFCON when outlaws/bountied pilots arrive, 2) Raise Safe Zone DEFCON when enemy combat ships are in space, and 3)Raise Safe Zone DEFCON when an unusal amount of space traffic...

Now this maybe cannot be coded, but the beacons should serve as prime intelligence tools for Faction seniority/leadership (Level 49/50).

If nothing more this advanced notification could be a nuiscance; however, if you think about it, this keeps and regulates the level of security within a given safe zone...

Let's use Liet (he seems to be a favorite of ours)... Our good Octavian Vindicator has a -90 PR with Quantar and decides to pay the rocklickers by visiting Ring View to stir up trouble. His entry into Q Space with Ring View properly tuned would send the Station sections into a DEFCON 2 posture. However if Liet had been -122, the Station sections (assumed to be safe zones) would be at DEFCON 1. That keeps and protects folks from being pirate ganked in their safe zones for the most part and Liet aint that stupid to wander into a bonafide hardsite.

For the military/HG application (cant we just go back to HG?), an HG/military invasion force led by OV into Sol space via Greater Locks with that Beacon tuned Blue would heightened a DEFCON 4 for the safe zones thus keeping the station sector shennigans out and letting peaceful activities within.

In sum.... Pirates and Enemy pilots should affect the defensive posture Safe Zones, the War Meter affects the overall political standing of factions.

IJ?

We've already had a few discussions on how to use beacons as a more effective tool to track bandits/pirates. The thing you have to watch out for with using them to track HG pilots is the inevitable existance of multi-faction squads. Not necessarily squads like MACK and New Dawn, since the likelyhood of them flying HG tags is pretty slim, but more along the lines of SoLiCiDaL. A Sol factionalist squad that had both Quant and Oct members.

But yes, the overall idea is to make it so that most activities have some impact on server-wide politics. You could also include same faction missions into the mix by having it so that the frequency of missions taken by Quants in Quant space dictates the level of AI support available (if cargo isn't being shipped and ore isn't being mined, how can the Quants field a worthy force of AI to defend their borders?).

The status of a factions war meter could also open up possibilities for "PvE" factional warfare as well. Just brainstorming here but lets say the higher into the red zone the meter gets, the more "open" warfare between the factions becomes, with more and more "special" combat and scouting missions becoming available to pilots that don't mind taking a risk in order to earn a reward.