[Algore]

Originally Posted by Poseidon

That right there always bothered me. To me, (and I may have been spoiled by other games) Light fighter is fast but light on guns. Heavy fighter is slower but has much more firepower. It just sticks as wrong in my mind that a light can't get away from heavy.

A fine example of when player ability and knowledge make the difference.

Regards
Al

[Elmdor]

double post

[Elmdor]

Im in a phoon all the time, get your facts straight. Don't blame me because every decent sol PvPer except for mike, dt, and starship have stopped playing. Stop trying to justify why you lose in fights because the other side is better.

[Corn]

i hate to say it tstrike but it looks like your wining about your skill not ship balance. Your trying to compare 2 stats when theres more like 5-8 that need to be taking account for. For example the vader has a faster recharge and larger shield then anyother MF, maybe you should try and use your increase in recharge rate to help you. The oct MF has the same shield as the pest but it has more armor. The pest is deffinetely the easiest to hit out of the MF class, where as your vader is the hardest ship to hit in game period.
Just for ****s and giggles will look at the tensy vs pest. 1v slower than pest, it does have more mass but its a F not a MF. 600 less armor but the bigger shield as well as recharge rate. AND 1 MORE FF! And bigger guns, as well as power to fire all guns at full throttle. You also have the ability to bust IJ, and if you knew anything about PvP you'd know the definite advantage to bursting your guns then chaining them. The tensy is the strongest fleet fighter in game period, recharge, escapablity(4ffs), no power problems, best gun mounts of all the fighters, the profile is definetly better than the phoon and is comparable to the nix. The other advantage of the tensy is even at your broad side it is not easy to hit, the phoon and the nix broad side are hard to miss.

As far as elm flying the phoon i see him flying it more then most of the active quants ATM. IT comes down to pilot skill more than ship balance, the ships will never be perfectly balance so you have to use the strong points of your ship and exploit the weak part of other pilots ship. Your currently blaming lack of skill on ship balance.

[Algore]

As a side note just for amusement.
I'd say that the Oct MF is harder to hit than the Quant MF, yet not as easy to hit as the Sol MF. I'd also say that on average my aim is better than anyone posting so far in this thread, so I am in a position to make this comment.
Just to put things in perspective.

Regards
Al

[Ambrosius]

Your aim is crap! Just a bunch of lucky shots!

[Aphelion]

****. I just wrote a 20min post on ship balance but it got erased by an accidental "back" button. Let's see what I can piece together...

Ship Balance: Why are we arguing ships from Jumpgate Classic? These are old arguments, and while it's nice to put them down on paper again for Scorch to enjoy, we should instead say why ships were effective/not-effective and leave it at that.

Phoon vs Tempest: On paper, the tempest looks outclassed by the phoon in DPS, armor, burstfire capability, and profile but in RS the two ships can be pretty much equal. The Tempest has a better T/M ratio and profile giving it better survivability which more then makes up for the lack of armor vs the phoon. Basically, the phoon is a ship that does slightly more DPS at the cost of less defence. Fly a Tempest when you have friends online. Fly a phoon when you have superior aim, piloting skill, and a death wish. The tempest is a more "boring" craft like the Tensy, but technically "boring" will win the fight and "exciting" leaves me in my phoon's pod on the way to QC.

Key points: We should discuss how complex certain ship factors influenced PvP playability in ships.

Turn rates give a "paper" advantage, but also make the ship harder to aim. Combine that with the Quantar's lack of power and you have a ship that's practically impossible to hit anyone with, hence why the Tempest's three thorns can do more damage then the phoon's 4 (in cases of non-elite aiming skill).

I particularly think we should focus on the interactions of these crucial ship balance factors, like the combo of lack of power plus turn rate in Quant ships. When I shoot in Jumpgate, my aiming style prefers burst-fire, making me much more deadly in the Chiopteran then the Tempest. Should all ships have access to a capacitor that lets them burst fire? I think so, but this would eliminate those few pilots who became good at chain firing.

The most important factor by far in ship balance is RS experience. Comparing stats is fun and dandy, but without RS testing it's useless. Tstrike forgot to account for several factors in his paper analysis of the ships including shield recharge rates (for running-charging AND accounting of recharge during direct combat), armor:shield ratios (recoverable damage), missed hits due to profiles, easier to aim Intensity pitch rates, and lack of burst fire capicitance (possibly only landing 2 of 3 lasers every shot). Simply because of it's insane profile, the Intruder will pwn in most 1v1 engagements with pilots of equal skill. When you compare ships on paper, you treat the battle as if ships stood still at range, and landed every shot. In RS, ships manuever, run and charge, and FF.

If you're still not convinced that paper comparisons of ships isn't accurate, just compare the Monsoon to anything. On paper, it should be able to dominate almost every ship in almost every encounter with higher armor, shields, DPS, 4 FF's, a decent T/M ratio and a high top speed. However, almost every combat ship in the game is better then the Monsoon. When I compared the Monsoon on paper I thought that being superior in 6 categories would assure me the win, but instead I was depressed with all my deaths for the two weeks I tried it out (pre-Vantages). Lesson learned.

[Algore]

Gimli beats virtually anything in his Monsoon, maybe you just need more practise

[SingleShot]

I think the availabilty of power is much more important than pitch rates. Nix pilots tend to have pretty good aim.

The Intensity would be a much more dangerous ship if it could pitch a bit.