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Econ Taxes on equipment are messed up

Discussion in 'Jumpgate Economy' started by Flowbar, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    NODRAGON noticed that there is profit to be made hauling equipment between Wake and Hyperial, buying Sport Plus at Wake and Rush at Hyp. When I double checked there was indeed only a 0.3% tax for me on Sport Plus at Wake, so I started to double check equipment taxes and saw that most equipment I checked at Wake indeed have a 0.3% tax (the same as for commodities, very little), while FlasFires have 2.3%. Comparing with Amananth, I saw that FlashFires have a 0.3% tax there, while Guardian shields have 2.3% tax at Aman but only 0.3% at Wake.

    The price difference between producing stations and non-producing have been around 2% for all stuff I've checked, and since I thought this was a general rule I've coded that into my market pages, but now I see that this is not true. In theory, every item needs to be checked at every station to figure out what the real tax is and I don't want to do that. I know of no way to get the tax without actively trying to buy an item in the game.

    Maybe all equipment started with 0.3% tax, but then the game administrators changed it to 2.3% for stuff that was moved absurdly much?

    This is a mess, I think I need to think about this a little.
     
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  2. RazorsKiss

    RazorsKiss Moderator

    28
    May 22, 2004
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0
    According to our friendly neighborhood GM, its been that way since this server opened, fwiw.
     
  3. Ambrosius

    Ambrosius Senior Magnate

    93
    May 31, 2004
    Ratings:
    +329 / 40 / -2
    Yes. It definitely changed with this new server. I remember thinking it was great not having to take a loss stocking Quantar ... but then people decided to exploit the change and started hauling things to places where they were NOT needed just to make cash and everything got screwed up.

    Ironically, the TradeGoods (Gemwoods, Textiles, ConMats) -- which were created by Istvan for the explicit reason of giving people simple meaningless proift hauls -- are flat-priced everywhere so there is no reason to move them. :p
     
  4. Nesayar

    Nesayar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 22, 2006
    Ratings:
    +52 / 2 / -0
    Moving equip from a producer to a non-producing station should be profitable, not much, but making minus with it, doesn't make sense.
    Tuned beacons lower the tax.
    Crossfactional deliveries could be dependent on peace-/war-status.

    So much equip was moved just for profit without sense.

    I remember thoughts to make "foreign" equip contraband, if factions are on war ... but those discussions are long ago,
    when TRI still had some Power.
     
  5. RazorsKiss

    RazorsKiss Moderator

    28
    May 22, 2004
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0
    One thing I noticed on your tracker - the profits you actually get aren't nearly as high in reality as they are on the tracker. Further, the equip being mixed in there makes the genuine commod runs much harder to find.Just a point for your consideration.
     
  6. Nesayar

    Nesayar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 22, 2006
    Ratings:
    +52 / 2 / -0
    I had the same thought yesterday while searching for a profitable and useful haul.
    All the equip mixed with the commods makes it partially confusing.
     
  7. Ambrosius

    Ambrosius Senior Magnate

    93
    May 31, 2004
    Ratings:
    +329 / 40 / -2
    In a perfect system, it should involve much more than producing/non-producing. The price should be impacted by the inventory at each location, the universal inventory available, WAR status, and the "factional need" for that equipment as well.

    But in the imperfect system we have to live with, it is much better to have equipment hauls NOT be profitable (IMO).
     
  8. RazorsKiss

    RazorsKiss Moderator

    28
    May 22, 2004
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0
    The equipment hauls are not very much more profitable than grain runs, on the whole - save the very high priced items, usually from Amananth or Hyperial. Those are roughly on par with the best of the commod runs, unit for unit, afaict.

    Anyhow, the equipment listings clutter up the profitable commods runs pretty effectively. You can find 'em, if you work for it, but it's a scroll and a half.
     
  9. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    Ok, please give at least one example and I will double check. The profits are supposed to be slightly defensive for a pilot with 100 pol rating, they will be lower at 0 pol. Whenever I double check I get a slightly larger profit than the one suggested, but then I almost always have 100+ pol rating when trading.

    I added equipment because I got reports that there are lucrative equipment hauls out there, and when I checked I could confirm that this is the case. But you need a lot of credits to make a profit from equipment, since the relative profit is small. Hauling as much equipment as your credit balance can take will increase profit per run though, and equipment is light, so there are rarely any weight issues to consider.

    Before I had equipment tracked, there were a lot of hauls with only a few dozens of commodities found for profitable runs, leaving Hyperial and Wake as terrible places to ship stuff from.
     
  10. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    I use this page to get an idea what to haul. It is made for a pilot with 100 pol rating everywhere and about 55m credits. With around 800m credits, you can get up to 14m per run of the most expensive equipment from Aman.

    Most profitable hauls

    I could make a set of pages without equipment, as before, for pure commodity runs, but now it starts to get complex enough so I should switch to some configurable way to find hauls, with checkboxes for equipment/commodities, pol rating, max cash, ship cargo space etc. It would need a different implementation technique though, client side functionality, which I don't use right now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
  11. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    Ok, "Profitable hauls" are not adjusted for equipment size, I use the "Useful hauls" pages instead, but they are only linked from the "Stations" page. I got a headache after I realized there are profitable equipment runs, it is much more complicated to find the correct haul with equipment that is so much more expensive per slot and also much more sensitive to tax differences.
     
  12. RazorsKiss

    RazorsKiss Moderator

    28
    May 22, 2004
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0
    Yeah, I did a few equip runs just for giggles - for instance, it was saying pint caps to KH were like 6k/u profit - but looking up what the sell price at KH would be versus the price, w/tax, that I was getting for buying at OP (for example), the actual profit per unit was closer to 950 credits/unit. You're right, you can make a lot better profit from Hyp or Aman, as a rule - but even then, the actual price you're paying w/tax on equip is much higher than what is listed on the tracker - and I have 100+ PR everywhere. I checked something in Oct because my PR there is usually highest - and even with 123 PR there was a difference of 5k/u profit from what is listed.

    You always make a profit hauling things like Dreams, Rushes, or Novas from Hyp - or the engine, radar, or PPs from Aman - but the less expensive equipment, even from there, doesn't get you much. I mean, it's totally up to you - I was just suggesting that all the equipment hauls make it more difficult to find the commod ones. That's all. Appreciate your tool, and use it a lot :)
     
  13. RazorsKiss

    RazorsKiss Moderator

    28
    May 22, 2004
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0
    That's a cool new page ;)
     
  14. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    So taking this as an example, we currently have, for Pints from OP to KH:

    Octavius Outpost Useful Haul

    Price at OP without tax: 463 200
    Price at OP with tax: 465 979
    Price at KH: 472 435
    Estimated profit per slot: 2 151

    I don't remember the size of a Pint, but it looks like it's a size 3 given a profit of 6.45k and an estimated profit per slot at 2.2k.

    Was it the buy price or the sell price that was wrong for you? I would expect the "Price at OP with tax", and maybe even a problem with Pints having a higher tax than 0.6%.

    The "Price at OP with tax" can only be seen when you attempt to buy Pints there, I don't know of any way to see that price.
     
  15. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    I double checked the buy price at KH, I have a pilot docked there, and it is indeed 472 435 for Pint, which is also a size 3. I have no pilot in Oct space, so I cannot check the price with tax right now. Given your numbers, with a profit of 950 units per Pint, I would expect

    Price at OP with tax: 472 435 - 950 = 471 485

    With a base price of 463 200 at OP, that would give a tax of:

    (471 485 / 463 200 - 1) = 0.018

    or 1.8%, which is clearly higher than the expected 0.7%, but much less than the tax around 2.7% given to equipment that should not be profitable, like POS ModX, or equipment at a non producing station. I'll double check this when I get to OP next time, to see the actual buy and sell prices there for Pints. 1.8% looks strange, that's a new number to me.
     
  16. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    On my "Useful Haul" pages, you can double check the "Price inc. tax" value, which is the one I don't know for every item everywhere. If it is lower than what you are offered at the station, then something is wrong and you probably shouldn't buy that item and instead report some numbers here instead for me to check out. This should only apply to equipment, read the subject of this thread to understand why.
     
  17. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    Ok, I have to pay 472 788 for a Pint at OP, with 43 Oct PR. This is a 2.1% tax and takes away any profit. No beacons lit at the moment. I will ask someone with 100 PR to check the price too.
     
  18. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    Pilot "You" could buy for 464 960 at 125 PR, a 0.4% tax, so PR matters a lot. I would then estimate a price around 467 200 for a 100 PR pilot, giving a tax near 0.9%. 25 PR seems to mean about 0.5% tax, which is significant for hauling equipment for a profit, but mostly irrelevant for hauling commodities, because equipment price differences are about 2% and for commodities it's 10-15%.
     
  19. RazorsKiss

    RazorsKiss Moderator

    28
    May 22, 2004
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0
    Yeah, it wasn't that it wasn't giving *any* profit - it was that the reported profits on the tracker didn't seem accurate - but like you said, there's no way for you to check what the actual price is, due to beacons and PR, etc. I was mostly just using that as an example to demonstrate that because equipment prices vary so much more, sorting equipment in doesn't seem very helpful on the "most profitable" page - at least to me, it obfuscates the commods I actually want to run. I can always find them if I scroll more, but c'est la vie. It's your page, so I'm not gonna tell ya what to do with it ;)
     
  20. Flowbar

    Flowbar Senior Magnate

    28
    Feb 1, 2006
    Ratings:
    +78 / 3 / -0
    My pages are indeed showing too optimistic values, tax for 100 pol and no beacons seem to be 0.87% for commodities and (most, there are a few exceptions at least) locally produced equipment, while my pages use 0.6%, more suitable for something like 118 pol. Tax seems to go down to about 0.3% at 125 pol, so for expensive equipment it's an interesting idea to push pol to the limit. I can update, but jumpgate-tri.org have issues today, so it won't show until that gets fixed.